How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
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22-07-2015, 10:45 AM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(21-07-2015 08:18 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 07:34 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  No, sir. I am biased. It is you who expects that every theist commentator is biased (and every pantheist commentator, too) while assuming that atheists simply all soak in plain, unvarnished truth. You have a bias, unless you wish to (falsely) protest that you will follow the evidence wherever it leads regarding a god(s).

You continue to miss the obvious: the need for evidence. If there were evidence for any gods, I would follow that evidence.

"unless you wish to (falsely) protest" Fuck you. You are such an asshole.

And on what basis, since you clearly have a bias against theists, cursing and mocking them on this forum, do you demonstrate you are able to interpret evidence in a (relatively) unbiased manner?

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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22-07-2015, 11:00 AM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(22-07-2015 10:45 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 08:18 AM)Chas Wrote:  You continue to miss the obvious: the need for evidence. If there were evidence for any gods, I would follow that evidence.

"unless you wish to (falsely) protest" Fuck you. You are such an asshole.

And on what basis, since you clearly have a bias against theists, cursing and mocking them on this forum, do you demonstrate you are able to interpret evidence in a (relatively) unbiased manner?

What evidence? There is none.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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22-07-2015, 11:26 AM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(22-07-2015 10:44 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(21-07-2015 08:55 AM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Q - When you assert that such a thing as "sin" (and therefore the concept of innocence from sin) exists, and that your religion offers the solution to this new problem, we're perfectly within our rights (indeed, within Reason) to skeptically question this concept, and require specific definitions of the new idea you're presenting to us.

Absolutely, of course, you are. So perhaps tell us why children have no sin (I say they do but are exempted from many of, not all of, sin's punishments).

Q - after all this time here, and all the questions, challenges, and requests for evidence, you still have no friggin clue. It is so disheartening to just watch and listen to how you go about providing not any shred of a convincing argument. Your assertions and claims of "sin", and "having sin", or being "exempt from punishment for sin" are meaningless unless you prove clearly to a skeptic that sin actually is something. The answer you provide to the doubting of this concept included the usage of this very word "sin" as if it is well understood and accepted by all.

And please stop conflating the concepts "innocent" and "unaccountable" since that is where the issue with children falls IMO. They are referred to as being innocent since they have no intentional ill will in their actions, unlike adults. If a toddler pushes over some valuables in your home, is he/she committing a "sin", whereas if I did it I would be guilty of doing wrong to you.

My son at age of 18 has used his brain to see what christianity is really about (after years involved in a youth group and church), why can't you?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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22-07-2015, 12:34 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
The idea that children are "without sin" is ridiculous, coming only from the Christian notion of disobedience to God = sin, and therefore children cannot sin until they understand the commandments of God. It happens to conflict with the notion that we are all born with a "sin-nature", from the Original Sin of Adam/Eve, as my church used to put it, but it makes us feel bad to say a newborn is going to hell, so we have to scramble to come up with a nice excuse.

Only functional definition of sin I ever saw that was worth a damn was by Robert Heinlein:

"Sin lies only in hurting others unnecessarily. All other 'sins' are invented nonsense."
-From Time Enough for Love (1973)

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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22-07-2015, 02:00 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
I told my former Department of Environment field-team partner (also an atheist and one of my best friends, with whom I keep in touch on Facebook because he moved to South Korea with his girlfriend a few years back), who now teaches elementary school, and also tutors highschool science in the evenings to rich Korean kids, about the assertion, here about the "children are without sin", last time it was brought up.

His reply, was (slightly paraphrased) "Have they MET any kids? Children are little sociopaths. They want whatever they want, and they want it right now, damn the consequences. They have to be taught morality. Some are better than others at learning it. It boils down to humans get more moral as they get older, not vice-versa."

I felt it was worth posting, here.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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23-07-2015, 09:32 AM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(22-07-2015 11:26 AM)Timber1025 Wrote:  
(22-07-2015 10:44 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Absolutely, of course, you are. So perhaps tell us why children have no sin (I say they do but are exempted from many of, not all of, sin's punishments).

Q - after all this time here, and all the questions, challenges, and requests for evidence, you still have no friggin clue. It is so disheartening to just watch and listen to how you go about providing not any shred of a convincing argument. Your assertions and claims of "sin", and "having sin", or being "exempt from punishment for sin" are meaningless unless you prove clearly to a skeptic that sin actually is something. The answer you provide to the doubting of this concept included the usage of this very word "sin" as if it is well understood and accepted by all.

And please stop conflating the concepts "innocent" and "unaccountable" since that is where the issue with children falls IMO. They are referred to as being innocent since they have no intentional ill will in their actions, unlike adults. If a toddler pushes over some valuables in your home, is he/she committing a "sin", whereas if I did it I would be guilty of doing wrong to you.

My son at age of 18 has used his brain to see what christianity is really about (after years involved in a youth group and church), why can't you?

How was your son involved in church with you as the leader of the fam?

And thanks for affirming you and I agree about children, that they sin and that God does not hold them accountable regarding salvation.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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23-07-2015, 09:34 AM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(22-07-2015 02:00 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I told my former Department of Environment field-team partner (also an atheist and one of my best friends, with whom I keep in touch on Facebook because he moved to South Korea with his girlfriend a few years back), who now teaches elementary school, and also tutors highschool science in the evenings to rich Korean kids, about the assertion, here about the "children are without sin", last time it was brought up.

His reply, was (slightly paraphrased) "Have they MET any kids? Children are little sociopaths. They want whatever they want, and they want it right now, damn the consequences. They have to be taught morality. Some are better than others at learning it. It boils down to humans get more moral as they get older, not vice-versa."

I felt it was worth posting, here.

Exactly. Children sin. Children need to be instructed in morality. And I can almost accept your definition of sin (hurting others) if you are willing to follow where it leads:

Pornography, drunkenness, drugs, etc. are not victimless crimes. They affect families, societies, etc. as well as self. If you have a libertine or libertarian view of sin, I think you are purposely underestimating sin's effects.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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23-07-2015, 10:57 AM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
Horseshit. Alcoholism, drug abuse, and porn addiction are problems, but not drinking, drug use, or enjoying porn (provided you're not supporting porn that exploits women). Yes, I agree where it harms others, it is "sinful", under my definition, but I do not agree that it always--or even ordinarily--leads to those things. I'd rate alcohol as by far the most dangerous of those things, but I cannot agree that it equal sin in and of itself.

Most of the scientific studies of all of the above things show that it's a decay of human bonds/ties that leads to abuses of the above, not the other way around.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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23-07-2015, 11:55 AM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(23-07-2015 09:32 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  How was your son involved in church with you as the leader of the fam?

And thanks for affirming you and I agree about children, that they sin and that God does not hold them accountable regarding salvation.

What are you that big of presumptuous asshole now - how was my son involved in church you ask? Firstly, he was interested and got duped by family members when he was 12 (not hard to lie to a 12 year old about what he should be doing or else!). Secondly, I allowed both my kids to explore whatever worldviews they wanted while becoming adults. I did not act as the family tyrant telling them what to think, but I taught them how to think. Hence, they both concluded that christianity is a man-made concept not worthy of any credibility.

And you are now also the biggest moron saying that I agree about sin, god, and salvation when you know I do not think any of those concepts exist. You slimy friggin worm of a weasel. Get some self worth and think for yourself you poor excuse for a human.

I would not let my own, or any, children near you.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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23-07-2015, 12:17 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
I like that, "leader of the family", an inherently Christian concept. As opposed to freethinkers, who are partners with their spouse, and unwilling to influence the spiritual development of their children aside from teaching them how to think critically, learn fully, and reason with what they've learned.

My son spent last week in Vacation Bible School at his (liberal Christian) church, because his mom is a Christian... but he's already expressed to me some doubts about the Church teaching because he's smart enough to check their claims out using the computer. And he's not even 9 yet! Smart kid. I'm being careful not to push him in one direction or the other, but only to help him learn how to shape his own mind instead of letting it be shaped by others, and to learn all he can about everything.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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