How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
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23-07-2015, 12:19 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(23-07-2015 09:32 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  How was your son involved in church with you as the leader of the fam?

And thanks for affirming you and I agree about children, that they sin and that God does not hold them accountable regarding salvation.

So Q, you just assume I am the solo leader of the family? Your saying that my wife and I cannot lead together? You saying my wife is not capable of being a leader and role model for our kids? Are you saying that a spouse's views are not to be considered or respected? You saying that my wife is required to subjugate herself under me?

JACKASS!

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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23-07-2015, 12:28 PM (This post was last modified: 23-07-2015 12:31 PM by Timber1025.)
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(23-07-2015 12:17 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I like that, "leader of the family", an inherently Christian concept. As opposed to freethinkers, who are partners with their spouse, and unwilling to influence the spiritual development of their children aside from teaching them how to think critically, learn fully, and reason with what they've learned.

My son spent last week in Vacation Bible School at his (liberal Christian) church, because his mom is a Christian... but he's already expressed to me some doubts about the Church teaching because he's smart enough to check their claims out using the computer. And he's not even 9 yet! Smart kid. I'm being careful not to push him in one direction or the other, but only to help him learn how to shape his own mind instead of letting it be shaped by others, and to learn all he can about everything.

Yeah, things like partnership, respect, critical thinking skills, and exploration are not some of our fellow christian's favorite concepts. They also cannot shake the idea that women are less worthy than men. I was not so quiet with my views with my son, so as a result the christians in the family are blaming me as "the bad influence" for my kids not swallowing any assertion or story as absolute truth. My youngest loves science, so it was going to happen with or without my influence is how I see it.

It is frightening how my wife's family, and folks like Q, see me as a bad leader for my free thinking, mature, and respectful children.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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23-07-2015, 02:47 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(23-07-2015 12:28 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Yeah, things like partnership, respect, critical thinking skills, and exploration are not some of our fellow christian's favorite concepts. They also cannot shake the idea that women are less worthy than men. I was not so quiet with my views with my son, so as a result the christians in the family are blaming me as "the bad influence" for my kids not swallowing any assertion or story as absolute truth. My youngest loves science, so it was going to happen with or without my influence is how I see it.

It is frightening how my wife's family, and folks like Q, see me as a bad leader for my free thinking, mature, and respectful children.

Funny how that works, eh? Reason and respect. If I didn't know better, I'd say setting an example of treating women like people makes your children become better people. No, that can't be it. Wink

Yes, I've chosen to go a path of lower-resistance, in terms of combat against the Christian influences, in part because of how they stuck by me throughout my ordeal and in part because they're not the "crazy" kind of Christian. They're well-educated about the Bible's errors and theological issues, they are as ardent against fundamentalist theology/teaching as I am (maybe a bit less than WhiskeyDebates... but who is, really?), and she is a professional evolutionary biologist and geneticist with a degree in biology/chemistry. So I'm not worried about him not being taught skepticism or the scientific method, or influenced to "switch off his mind" to the degree that would hamper him.

My own (future) mother-in-law is the one who sent me a copy of the book The Language of God by Dr. Francis Collins, an evangelical Christian and head scientist of the Human Genome Project, which is quite unequivocal about saying evolution happened exactly the way science says it did, from protocells to people, to let me know they were scientific allies, not opponents, and though she dislikes my atheism, I've been very fortunate that our discussions have mostly been amiable. The one time we clashed was over the "homosexuality = evil" issue, when she said she "didn't want [her] grandson being taught that it's okay to be gay"... and she sobered up right quick when I asked her what if HE was gay, and would she love him less, then? (That I wouldn't allow her in his life, if that was the case.) She even apologized to me about it and revised her opinion after consulting her pastor, who set her "straight" (please forgive the pun) about what the Bible really does and does not say about homosexuality. I was shocked; I had never before, in my upbringing as a Southern Baptist, seen a religious person go check their sources, realize their error by honest investigation, and come back to apologize. We're still squabbling over exactly what the Bible says about "one man one woman", but it's totally friendly. She'll be here Sunday evening... might take up that conversation over dinner. Smile

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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24-07-2015, 10:03 AM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(23-07-2015 12:17 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I like that, "leader of the family", an inherently Christian concept. As opposed to freethinkers, who are partners with their spouse, and unwilling to influence the spiritual development of their children aside from teaching them how to think critically, learn fully, and reason with what they've learned.

My son spent last week in Vacation Bible School at his (liberal Christian) church, because his mom is a Christian... but he's already expressed to me some doubts about the Church teaching because he's smart enough to check their claims out using the computer. And he's not even 9 yet! Smart kid. I'm being careful not to push him in one direction or the other, but only to help him learn how to shape his own mind instead of letting it be shaped by others, and to learn all he can about everything.

Parents, leaders

Children, not fully leaders

But thanks for yet another dig on "inherent Christian concepts" like actually leading your family instead of being a passive wastrel and baby daddy!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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24-07-2015, 10:05 AM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(23-07-2015 02:47 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 12:28 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  Yeah, things like partnership, respect, critical thinking skills, and exploration are not some of our fellow christian's favorite concepts. They also cannot shake the idea that women are less worthy than men. I was not so quiet with my views with my son, so as a result the christians in the family are blaming me as "the bad influence" for my kids not swallowing any assertion or story as absolute truth. My youngest loves science, so it was going to happen with or without my influence is how I see it.

It is frightening how my wife's family, and folks like Q, see me as a bad leader for my free thinking, mature, and respectful children.

Funny how that works, eh? Reason and respect. If I didn't know better, I'd say setting an example of treating women like people makes your children become better people. No, that can't be it. Wink

Yes, I've chosen to go a path of lower-resistance, in terms of combat against the Christian influences, in part because of how they stuck by me throughout my ordeal and in part because they're not the "crazy" kind of Christian. They're well-educated about the Bible's errors and theological issues, they are as ardent against fundamentalist theology/teaching as I am (maybe a bit less than WhiskeyDebates... but who is, really?), and she is a professional evolutionary biologist and geneticist with a degree in biology/chemistry. So I'm not worried about him not being taught skepticism or the scientific method, or influenced to "switch off his mind" to the degree that would hamper him.

My own (future) mother-in-law is the one who sent me a copy of the book The Language of God by Dr. Francis Collins, an evangelical Christian and head scientist of the Human Genome Project, which is quite unequivocal about saying evolution happened exactly the way science says it did, from protocells to people, to let me know they were scientific allies, not opponents, and though she dislikes my atheism, I've been very fortunate that our discussions have mostly been amiable. The one time we clashed was over the "homosexuality = evil" issue, when she said she "didn't want [her] grandson being taught that it's okay to be gay"... and she sobered up right quick when I asked her what if HE was gay, and would she love him less, then? (That I wouldn't allow her in his life, if that was the case.) She even apologized to me about it and revised her opinion after consulting her pastor, who set her "straight" (please forgive the pun) about what the Bible really does and does not say about homosexuality. I was shocked; I had never before, in my upbringing as a Southern Baptist, seen a religious person go check their sources, realize their error by honest investigation, and come back to apologize. We're still squabbling over exactly what the Bible says about "one man one woman", but it's totally friendly. She'll be here Sunday evening... might take up that conversation over dinner. Smile

There are 18 Bible references to homosexuality. Perhaps ask her why none of them are in a positive light. I'd be curious to learn her answer and the fruits of your discussion.

Thank you.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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24-07-2015, 10:54 AM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(24-07-2015 10:05 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 02:47 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  Funny how that works, eh? Reason and respect. If I didn't know better, I'd say setting an example of treating women like people makes your children become better people. No, that can't be it. Wink

Yes, I've chosen to go a path of lower-resistance, in terms of combat against the Christian influences, in part because of how they stuck by me throughout my ordeal and in part because they're not the "crazy" kind of Christian. They're well-educated about the Bible's errors and theological issues, they are as ardent against fundamentalist theology/teaching as I am (maybe a bit less than WhiskeyDebates... but who is, really?), and she is a professional evolutionary biologist and geneticist with a degree in biology/chemistry. So I'm not worried about him not being taught skepticism or the scientific method, or influenced to "switch off his mind" to the degree that would hamper him.

My own (future) mother-in-law is the one who sent me a copy of the book The Language of God by Dr. Francis Collins, an evangelical Christian and head scientist of the Human Genome Project, which is quite unequivocal about saying evolution happened exactly the way science says it did, from protocells to people, to let me know they were scientific allies, not opponents, and though she dislikes my atheism, I've been very fortunate that our discussions have mostly been amiable. The one time we clashed was over the "homosexuality = evil" issue, when she said she "didn't want [her] grandson being taught that it's okay to be gay"... and she sobered up right quick when I asked her what if HE was gay, and would she love him less, then? (That I wouldn't allow her in his life, if that was the case.) She even apologized to me about it and revised her opinion after consulting her pastor, who set her "straight" (please forgive the pun) about what the Bible really does and does not say about homosexuality. I was shocked; I had never before, in my upbringing as a Southern Baptist, seen a religious person go check their sources, realize their error by honest investigation, and come back to apologize. We're still squabbling over exactly what the Bible says about "one man one woman", but it's totally friendly. She'll be here Sunday evening... might take up that conversation over dinner. Smile

There are 18 Bible references to homosexuality. Perhaps ask her why none of them are in a positive light. I'd be curious to learn her answer and the fruits of your discussion.

Thank you.

Want me to present a bunch of references on religious fundamentalism - so I can then ask you why they are not in a positive light?

Keep referencing the that bible of yours dimwit as it works so well in explaining the divisive, judgmental, bigoted, and self-righteous views you puke up here.

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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24-07-2015, 02:46 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(23-07-2015 12:19 PM)Timber1025 Wrote:  So Q, you just assume I am the solo leader of the family? Your saying that my wife and I cannot lead together? You saying my wife is not capable of being a leader and role model for our kids? Are you saying that a spouse's views are not to be considered or respected? You saying that my wife is required to subjugate herself under me?

JACKASS!

That's precisely what he's saying.

(24-07-2015 10:03 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  But thanks for yet another dig on "inherent Christian concepts" like actually leading your family instead of being a passive wastrel and baby daddy!

I've lived and worked in matriarchies my entire life. My job is to provide the family with funding. I'm a pretty damn good fund raiser. I get a say in how it's used if and when I care to. I rarely do. I like it, it's good.

There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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24-07-2015, 03:01 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(24-07-2015 10:03 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(23-07-2015 12:17 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I like that, "leader of the family", an inherently Christian concept. As opposed to freethinkers, who are partners with their spouse, and unwilling to influence the spiritual development of their children aside from teaching them how to think critically, learn fully, and reason with what they've learned.

My son spent last week in Vacation Bible School at his (liberal Christian) church, because his mom is a Christian... but he's already expressed to me some doubts about the Church teaching because he's smart enough to check their claims out using the computer. And he's not even 9 yet! Smart kid. I'm being careful not to push him in one direction or the other, but only to help him learn how to shape his own mind instead of letting it be shaped by others, and to learn all he can about everything.

Parents, leaders

Children, not fully leaders

But thanks for yet another dig on "inherent Christian concepts" like actually leading your family instead of being a passive wastrel and baby daddy!

"instead of being a passive wastrel and baby daddy"? Where did you get that from what he said?

Right - you got it straight out of your ass.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-07-2015, 03:40 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(03-06-2015 10:56 PM)Worom Wrote:  The effects of being told Evolution is a lie and the Earth is young, pushed me away from biology, geology and astronomy classes because they conflicted with my “belief” because I didn’t want to go to hell by being tricked by the devil.
This is the thing.
Never having been a theist I don't quite understand how the blame for going to hell, lands on the devil's trickery.

It is the god that decides whether you go to heaven or hell.
It is the god that knows everything, and hence knows that you were tricked into believing in evolution.
Can't the all knowing, all loving god, realising that you have been tricked simply re-educate you? Rather than condemn you to eternity of torture?

Why does the blame fall onto the devil and the self and not the god?

What loving parent, knowing their child has been misinformed, resorts to gross and enduring punishment of their child?

It makes me think of people that live under a malevolent dictator like Stalin, Mao, Hitler etc. They end up considering their leader as if they are an all knowing, all seeing god. They fear speaking a bad word of their leader and yet they "love" their leader.
What's so sad about the religious folk is that they often live in a free first world democratic country and yet they imagine being under the hooks of a malevolent dictator leader (god) and behave in a similar way to those that are truly oppressed.
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24-07-2015, 04:13 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(24-07-2015 03:40 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(03-06-2015 10:56 PM)Worom Wrote:  The effects of being told Evolution is a lie and the Earth is young, pushed me away from biology, geology and astronomy classes because they conflicted with my “belief” because I didn’t want to go to hell by being tricked by the devil.
This is the thing.
Never having been a theist I don't quite understand how the blame for going to hell, lands on the devil's trickery.

It is the god that decides whether you go to heaven or hell.
It is the god that knows everything, and hence knows that you were tricked into believing in evolution.
Can't the all knowing, all loving god, realising that you have been tricked simply re-educate you? Rather than condemn you to eternity of torture?

Why does the blame fall onto the devil and the self and not the god?

What loving parent, knowing their child has been misinformed, resorts to gross and enduring punishment of their child?

It makes me think of people that live under a malevolent dictator like Stalin, Mao, Hitler etc. They end up considering their leader as if they are an all knowing, all seeing god. They fear speaking a bad word of their leader and yet they "love" their leader.
What's so sad about the religious folk is that they often live in a free first world democratic country and yet they imagine being under the hooks of a malevolent dictator leader (god) and behave in a similar way to those that are truly oppressed.

It felt exactly like that growing up, my parents were extremely strict. Controlling what I watched, what I read, where I went to school(until they couldn't afford to anymore) Speaking up against my parents was met with very real physical punishment as well until the point where I became submissive and quiet so not to be punished anymore by accidently saying the wrong thing. My dad doing the punishing, my mom wouldn't get involved or intervene. Those malevolent dictator teachings and thinking translated to my home life as a child.

“We can judge our progress by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers, our willingness to embrace what is true rather than what feels good.”
― Carl Sagan
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