How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
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30-07-2015, 01:23 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(30-07-2015 10:22 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 08:50 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Do you after all your time here not really grasp how a natural state is not believing. Like the position a infant has and that any claim of knowledge or belief is one that needs evidence providing?

Or do you disbelief this on some grounds? And on what level do you not think that is the case. Do you think that some babies are born christian babies? Or Muslim babies? Hindi babies? Or are they all Christians they just don't know it, since that's apparently the truth faith.

It IS a natural human state to be skeptical, and about many different things. Yes.

But I think before we go into religious babies, we should decide whether or not:

Are there any absolute facts?

Are there any absolute values?

Are there any absolute morals?

Because "laws" tend to have law givers.

I don't know if there is. I don't think the evidence of what we see in existence shows any absolute facts, values, or morals. These all appear to be mental constructs, but I don't absolutely know there is no absolutes.

Laws are also another humanly created term with multiple meanings. Those meanings don't really reflect anything other than humans labels them. And Law is clearly just a label as that's just the term in English used.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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30-07-2015, 01:43 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(30-07-2015 10:25 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(29-07-2015 01:51 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Convincing evidence, not a silly nonsensical unsupported book or wide eyed people preaching "Truth".

Even if it were proven that the Christian god existed, I wouldn't worship it. I'd seek a way to either kill or contain it. According to the bible it seems sadistic and overbearing and random. Satan in the bible seems much more pleasant that the god of the bible. Hell Hitler seem much more pleasant than the god of the bible.

Hitler threw some good parties, but I'm not sure I'd want to spend eternity in his company... no, no, I'm definitely sure.

You see, you can ask any atheist if the Holocaust was a wrong thing, an evil, and they'd say YES!
There are many atheists who philosophically are moral nihilsts and wouldn't use the terms you use. But many of the others that are comfortable using such lax terms would also say the god of the old testament is wrong and evil and wouldn't want to spend eternity is such company.
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30-07-2015, 04:48 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(Q said):
I don't think 7- and 8-year-olds can go to Hell. So I don't get what you're saying here.

Babies, toddlers, kids, the mentally infirm, going to Heaven. Jesus said, "Of such [children!] is the Kingdom!"

But without the Bible, simple logic would tell us any god with the notions of justice we share with it would let all kids into Heaven.
[/quote]

When I was an evangelical Christian kid, I was told that after the "age of reason" kids were considered sinful enough to be damned. My church held that baptism was only for people past the age of reason, and the lower limit of kids allowed to be baptized was 7-8. That's why I chose that figure. Certainly by about age 7-8, most kids are aware that rules exist, that breaking those rules is considered "bad," and may certainly make a decision to break a rule.

Regarding the part of your quote that I bolded: any god with the notions of justice that I share would not have put a big red DONOTTOUCH button in the middle of Eden, because that's entrapment. A god whose notions of justice that I share would make itself unequivocally present and known to mankind. A god whose notions of justice that I share would not have instructed its followers to rape and murder, especially and explicitly in some cases: children. A god whose notions of justice that I share would not have demanded blood sacrifice or killed a being represented as its son. I could go on and on, but my main point is that the god you worship is not a god whose notions of justice I share.

A god who is hung up on the notion of being worshiped and adored by beings with free will, however, could do many of the things above, except that it is unfair of that god to take beings who have not had the opportunity to exercise their free will. That's not mercy for young things that have not been able to exercise their moral agency, since omnipotent god has the ability to prevent the disasters that take the children's lives. I assert that this is simply stacking the decks for the supreme being, and again, this god is not one whose notions of justice I could ever share.
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31-07-2015, 01:38 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(30-07-2015 04:48 PM)julep Wrote:  (Q said):
I don't think 7- and 8-year-olds can go to Hell. So I don't get what you're saying here.

Babies, toddlers, kids, the mentally infirm, going to Heaven. Jesus said, "Of such [children!] is the Kingdom!"

But without the Bible, simple logic would tell us any god with the notions of justice we share with it would let all kids into Heaven.

When I was an evangelical Christian kid, I was told that after the "age of reason" kids were considered sinful enough to be damned. My church held that baptism was only for people past the age of reason, and the lower limit of kids allowed to be baptized was 7-8. That's why I chose that figure. Certainly by about age 7-8, most kids are aware that rules exist, that breaking those rules is considered "bad," and may certainly make a decision to break a rule.

Regarding the part of your quote that I bolded: any god with the notions of justice that I share would not have put a big red DONOTTOUCH button in the middle of Eden, because that's entrapment. A god whose notions of justice that I share would make itself unequivocally present and known to mankind. A god whose notions of justice that I share would not have instructed its followers to rape and murder, especially and explicitly in some cases: children. A god whose notions of justice that I share would not have demanded blood sacrifice or killed a being represented as its son. I could go on and on, but my main point is that the god you worship is not a god whose notions of justice I share.

A god who is hung up on the notion of being worshiped and adored by beings with free will, however, could do many of the things above, except that it is unfair of that god to take beings who have not had the opportunity to exercise their free will. That's not mercy for young things that have not been able to exercise their moral agency, since omnipotent god has the ability to prevent the disasters that take the children's lives. I assert that this is simply stacking the decks for the supreme being, and again, this god is not one whose notions of justice I could ever share.
[/quote]

I guess this argument rests upon whether you think you, me and God all hold the following value as true:

Children who are told not to touch dangerous things by adults are to avoid doing so and are very immature children if they protest entrapment when caught in temptation.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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31-07-2015, 01:39 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(30-07-2015 01:43 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(30-07-2015 10:25 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Hitler threw some good parties, but I'm not sure I'd want to spend eternity in his company... no, no, I'm definitely sure.

You see, you can ask any atheist if the Holocaust was a wrong thing, an evil, and they'd say YES!
There are many atheists who philosophically are moral nihilsts and wouldn't use the terms you use. But many of the others that are comfortable using such lax terms would also say the god of the old testament is wrong and evil and wouldn't want to spend eternity is such company.

And I say with sorrow, it will be done unto you as you wish... to spend eternity in such company or no. That's the power and wonder of the God-given gift, free will.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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31-07-2015, 01:48 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(31-07-2015 01:39 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(30-07-2015 01:43 PM)Stevil Wrote:  There are many atheists who philosophically are moral nihilsts and wouldn't use the terms you use. But many of the others that are comfortable using such lax terms would also say the god of the old testament is wrong and evil and wouldn't want to spend eternity is such company.

And I say with sorrow, it will be done unto you as you wish... to spend eternity in such company or no. That's the power and wonder of the God-given gift, free will.

There is a tremendous amount of evidence that humans don't have free will and there is no evidence of any god so... there's really nothing to be sorry about, Qbert.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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31-07-2015, 01:48 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(30-07-2015 01:23 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(30-07-2015 10:22 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  It IS a natural human state to be skeptical, and about many different things. Yes.

But I think before we go into religious babies, we should decide whether or not:

Are there any absolute facts?

Are there any absolute values?

Are there any absolute morals?

Because "laws" tend to have law givers.

I don't know if there is. I don't think the evidence of what we see in existence shows any absolute facts, values, or morals. These all appear to be mental constructs, but I don't absolutely know there is no absolutes.

Laws are also another humanly created term with multiple meanings. Those meanings don't really reflect anything other than humans labels them. And Law is clearly just a label as that's just the term in English used.

I can respect your honest statement--thanks for sharing it--that you don't see absolute facts, values or morals. The following questions, therefore, are not meant to shame you, only to enlighten you--and they're good for me to hear as well:

Are you absolutely sure there is no absolute truth?

If it is a falsity to say there is absolute truth, don't we have to assume that truth exists to say anything is false?

If there is absolute truth, was it arrived at by random, natural causes?

If love is truth and hate is false or wrong, how much does love weigh? How large in cubic measurement is hate?

Are love and hate merely chemical? Could love and hate be part of the absolute truths I preach on?

If there are no absolute truths, how come all societies regard murder as absolutely wrong? You see, no one wants to abort life, pro life people affirm life, pro choice people would never kill a toddler, only fetuses they believe are not really living humans, right? Because then abortion would be murder, right?

And even cannibals do elaborate rituals and prayers, dancing about before they boil their prey, because they know inside how murder and eating people is wrong, right? And even serial killers know murder is wrong but they just don't feel like its wrong when they kill, right?

And morals are absolute, of course. A Hindu pays for their sin by working their karma. A Christian trusts that Jesus pays for their sin. An atheist deals with the guilt we ALL feel when we sin by saying there is no sin, no guilt.

But there are absolutes. I'm absolutely certain of this fact.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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31-07-2015, 01:51 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(31-07-2015 01:48 PM)kim Wrote:  
(31-07-2015 01:39 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  And I say with sorrow, it will be done unto you as you wish... to spend eternity in such company or no. That's the power and wonder of the God-given gift, free will.

There is a tremendous amount of evidence that humans don't have free will and there is no evidence of any god so... there's really nothing to be sorry about, Qbert.

No, free will exists.

Please also be made aware that should you choose to reply to the sentence above you will be choosing to do so of your own free will. But if you choose not to reply but to ignore what you read above, "free will exists," you will not be doing so via an exertion of your own free will.

I would say when we talk about evidence for God we should start with:

Does absolute truth exist?

My post above will help with that line of inquiry.

Thanks.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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31-07-2015, 02:04 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
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31-07-2015, 02:07 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
Double posting because for some reason, I can't see my reply. Apologies if it appears twice; I am responding to Q.

Children who are told not to touch dangerous things by adults are to avoid doing so and are very immature children if they protest entrapment when caught in temptation.
[/quote]

No, I would not hold that value judgment as true. Adults' judgment of what constitutes a "dangerous thing" is questionable, and in many cases, what is being punished essentially is any deviation from abject obedience (and therefore entrapment). My parents felt the TV program M*A*S*H was a dangerous thing and forbade us to watch it. We children obeyed or got beatings, so we followed this rule; this did not, however, make M*A*S*H a dangerous thing, or the rule a good rule, or my parents worthy of being blindly obeyed. It just meant that we children recognized the power dynamic of our household and bided our time until we could get away.

I don't find knowledge of good and evil to be a dangerous thing; the dangerous thing was the abusive creator who punished all of his creations from that point forward for the acts of two.
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