How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
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08-08-2015, 11:20 AM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(07-08-2015 06:14 PM)Matt Finney Wrote:  


I saw that when it was on TV. Have always been a fan of Stephen Hawking; A Brief History of Time was one of the first books I sought out when I deconverted.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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08-08-2015, 02:30 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(05-08-2015 08:42 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(04-08-2015 10:22 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I think there may be a misreading of what am meaning or saying on this. You've twice seemed to veer the point of my stance on "evolving" & absolutes not as I was stating or intending to state.

Because for you to ask if I think this logical position evolved, it doesn't make sense unless you interpenetrated that differently than I intended. I don't think "absolutes" evolve. I was attempting to say to you, the things you had SPECIFICALLY called absolutes, I.E. Guilt/Murder in the posts before. That I don't think for certain are absolutes, That's why I said "what you call absolutes" to direct it toward the things you have previously stated are absolutes.(maybe I should of said those things by name or said the exact things you called or labeled, but I didn't seem to get the exact point across)

To answer it, I don't know if the law of non-contradiction evolved over time, I would say think no. But I would not be certain it is an absolute thing either as there are capable systems of logic that don't accept it is certain. I've seen claims of electronics/quantum fields/closed Theories(which sure is theory not application.) So it's still something is not certain because some law claims of that nature are hard to verify or find falsifiable. They stand in a hard to make a certain judge state.

I don't agree to your view that places statements in a black/white manner. Things seemingly may not be both true & false, but not true doesn't mean false. Just as Not Guilty doesn't mean Innocent. It can simply mean we don't have the information, lack the evidence necessary to conclude either, or maybe there is no discernible answer to questions at hand. Different forms of Logic's hold trues to a different degree sometimes. I would think for something to be absolute, it would have to apply to these forms of logic that demonstrate practical consistency. I think there are some tautologies that would apply, those I may take a closer to firm stance as absolutes, but I still don't proclaim to Know they are absolute.

Denial is, but I am not in a position that states I deny absolute truth. To me it is an Unknown/I don't know/perhaps not stance. It is not a position that presupposes truth. I don't proclaim to have truth or know if anyone has or can understand truth.

Are you sure no one can understand truth? Because you seem certain it is truthful that no one can understand truth. Are you absolutely sure no one can understand truth or are you somewhat sure?

I'm not of this position again you think I'm certain of.

No, I am not at all certain no one can understand truth. I haven't indicated I am even sure of it. What I am stating and what I think is quite simply a position of not knowing and not being certain either way. You may have an

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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08-08-2015, 02:53 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(07-08-2015 12:27 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  The odds against the many combinations of factors that go toward life--whether you find such life to have evolved or have been created in the beginning--are astronomical, even "cosmic".

To deny this is to deny science--or are you unaware of the current search for planets that might support life?

You're not getting it. The odds against life are astronomical, yet here we are. That is the basic line of thought for the current search for planets that will support life, along with other rather solid evidence that it should be so. We know they should exist even beyond the astronomical odds because.....we are here.

The odds get ever so better given the "astronomical", even "cosmic" chances that the vast enormity of the cosmos affords them. From my view, the odds of life elsewhere is not a question of if, but where.





In an existence so immense you'd have to be either ignorant, or willfully blinded to the fact that our own place in this universe is not unlikely, just rare. But that rarity does not hinder the odds that life will (and does) exist elsewhere in the cosmos.

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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17-08-2015, 12:51 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(07-08-2015 12:41 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 12:27 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  It is neither anthrocentric nor an argument from incredulity (as you wrote) to know for a scientific fact that it is extremely unlikely to find a planet with the conditions for life we enjoy. Natural water cycles provide water. The right amounts of nitrogen and oxygen and magnetic and atmospheric shielding and so on.

The odds against the many combinations of factors that go toward life--whether you find such life to have evolved or have been created in the beginning--are astronomical, even "cosmic".

To deny this is to deny science--or are you unaware of the current search for planets that might support life?

There are hundreds of billions of planets and the conditions on Earth are not the only conditions that make life possible.

You are ignorant.

Chas, you may certainly claim that there are other conditions that make life possible once you do either of two things: 1) show us this life on another planet and what form it comes as 2) show us the first life on Earth was randomly "created".

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17-08-2015, 01:00 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(17-08-2015 12:51 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(07-08-2015 12:41 PM)Chas Wrote:  There are hundreds of billions of planets and the conditions on Earth are not the only conditions that make life possible.

You are ignorant.

Chas, you may certainly claim that there are other conditions that make life possible once you do either of two things: 1) show us this life on another planet and what form it comes as

We have already found forms of life in habitats that kill other forms of life right here on earth, e.g. organisms by hydrothermal vents, organisms by cold seeps.

We don't know the limits on environments that can support life or the forms it can take. Since there are countless billions of planets, there are countless billions of planets of opportunites.

Quote:2) show us the first life on Earth was randomly "created".

It was not "created".
Show any evidence that it did not come about by natural causes.

Quote:[Image: image.jpg]

You are such an ass.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-08-2015, 08:35 AM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(17-08-2015 01:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(17-08-2015 12:51 PM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Chas, you may certainly claim that there are other conditions that make life possible once you do either of two things: 1) show us this life on another planet and what form it comes as

We have already found forms of life in habitats that kill other forms of life right here on earth, e.g. organisms by hydrothermal vents, organisms by cold seeps.

We don't know the limits on environments that can support life or the forms it can take. Since there are countless billions of planets, there are countless billions of planets of opportunites.

Quote:2) show us the first life on Earth was randomly "created".

It was not "created".
Show any evidence that it did not come about by natural causes.

Quote:[Image: image.jpg]

You are such an ass.

There are indeed countless billions of planets with opportunities. However, all life here including vent and seep life formed due to a wide variety of factors which taken together make the odds of life on any one planet infinitesimally small. Do you deny this? If so, I've noticed you again go against the prevailing scientific opinion... Of course, you also managed to duck my question regarding the paucity of life in the explored Solar System and beyond.

There are thousands of proteins within life on Earth, and they all differ by the sequence of the amino acids on the polymer chain. You can have all the time you want in your random reactions but they lack the power to form life.

PS. Cursed are those who curse others. Stop it, address the facts. Be a nice person. You are an example of why most Christians (not me) will not come to this forum--it has less to do with your towering intellect and more to do with your exceptionally rude behavior.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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18-08-2015, 09:11 AM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(18-08-2015 08:35 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(17-08-2015 01:00 PM)Chas Wrote:  We have already found forms of life in habitats that kill other forms of life right here on earth, e.g. organisms by hydrothermal vents, organisms by cold seeps.

We don't know the limits on environments that can support life or the forms it can take. Since there are countless billions of planets, there are countless billions of planets of opportunites.


It was not "created".
Show any evidence that it did not come about by natural causes.


You are such an ass.

There are indeed countless billions of planets with opportunities. However, all life here including vent and seep life formed due to a wide variety of factors which taken together make the odds of life on any one planet infinitesimally small. Do you deny this?

Yes, I deny it as an unqualified assertion. We don't know the limits of the environments where life is possible.

Quote:If so, I've noticed you again go against the prevailing scientific opinion... Of course, you also managed to duck my question regarding the paucity of life in the explored Solar System and beyond.

I don't think you actually know what prevailing scientific opinion is.

The solar system has not been well explored. There is still the possibility of life on Europa, Titan, and other moons.

Quote:There are thousands of proteins within life on Earth, and they all differ by the sequence of the amino acids on the polymer chain. You can have all the time you want in your random reactions but they lack the power to form life.

That is an ignorant opinion. You don't know that.

Quote:PS. Cursed are those who curse others. Stop it, address the facts. Be a nice person. You are an example of why most Christians (not me) will not come to this forum--it has less to do with your towering intellect and more to do with your exceptionally rude behavior.

My comment was in response to your rudeness, so piss off.
Your holier-than-thou attitude is beyond annoying.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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18-08-2015, 12:25 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(05-08-2015 08:42 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(04-08-2015 10:22 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I think there may be a misreading of what am meaning or saying on this. You've twice seemed to veer the point of my stance on "evolving" & absolutes not as I was stating or intending to state.

Because for you to ask if I think this logical position evolved, it doesn't make sense unless you interpenetrated that differently than I intended. I don't think "absolutes" evolve. I was attempting to say to you, the things you had SPECIFICALLY called absolutes, I.E. Guilt/Murder in the posts before. That I don't think for certain are absolutes, That's why I said "what you call absolutes" to direct it toward the things you have previously stated are absolutes.(maybe I should of said those things by name or said the exact things you called or labeled, but I didn't seem to get the exact point across)

To answer it, I don't know if the law of non-contradiction evolved over time, I would say think no. But I would not be certain it is an absolute thing either as there are capable systems of logic that don't accept it is certain. I've seen claims of electronics/quantum fields/closed Theories(which sure is theory not application.) So it's still something is not certain because some law claims of that nature are hard to verify or find falsifiable. They stand in a hard to make a certain judge state.

I don't agree to your view that places statements in a black/white manner. Things seemingly may not be both true & false, but not true doesn't mean false. Just as Not Guilty doesn't mean Innocent. It can simply mean we don't have the information, lack the evidence necessary to conclude either, or maybe there is no discernible answer to questions at hand. Different forms of Logic's hold trues to a different degree sometimes. I would think for something to be absolute, it would have to apply to these forms of logic that demonstrate practical consistency. I think there are some tautologies that would apply, those I may take a closer to firm stance as absolutes, but I still don't proclaim to Know they are absolute.

Denial is, but I am not in a position that states I deny absolute truth. To me it is an Unknown/I don't know/perhaps not stance. It is not a position that presupposes truth. I don't proclaim to have truth or know if anyone has or can understand truth.

Are you sure no one can understand truth? Because you seem certain it is truthful that no one can understand truth. Are you absolutely sure no one can understand truth or are you somewhat sure?

Are you going to ever continue this little bit where you seem to not be able to understand a skeptical position upon the claims of certainty or are you too done with that. And you are certain that someone must agree in your concepts of so many things being absolute to talk to them?

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18-08-2015, 12:29 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(18-08-2015 08:35 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  There are indeed countless billions of planets with opportunities. However, all life here including vent and seep life formed due to a wide variety of factors which taken together make the odds of life on any one planet infinitesimally small. Do you deny this?

No. The odds of life on any specific planet are extremely small.

Fortunately, there is something of an overabundance of candidates, considering the size of our universe, so it doesn't really matter too much.

(18-08-2015 08:35 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  There are thousands of proteins within life on Earth, and they all differ by the sequence of the amino acids on the polymer chain. You can have all the time you want in your random reactions but they lack the power to form life.

Is there any connection at all between those two sentences? I can't see one.

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18-08-2015, 01:35 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(03-06-2015 10:56 PM)Worom Wrote:  The TLDR version is at the bottom of the post, for those who don't want the wall o text Smile

I wanted to post what my mind was like before I became an Atheist and how religion nearly shattered my mind. This won’t be an overly detailed but more of a generalization of how my mind was as I feel the length would be too great for this type of post. However, if anyone has questions or would like to elaborate on any topic further please let me know and I will do so.

When I was indoctrinated into the ideals of Christianity as a child I was taught of course that God loves us and that Jesus saved all of us by being sacrificed on the cross, and that If I believed him I would go to heaven, however if I didn’t I would burn forever in hell. As a child this fear caused me to of course to believe in God/Jesus out of fear of being sent to hell otherwise. I was also taught that anything that goes against the Bible is a work of the devil and to ignore the information and even proclaim to myself that I didn’t believe what was being said.

Those two “teachings” set me up for trouble in the future. My parents did their best to shield me from the outside world of science and knowledge. They did this by homeschooling/private schooling me up until 6th grade with a Christian based education, and very closely regulating what I watched on TV and what computer games I was eventually allowed to have. This was before the internet had become as wide spread as it is now and the most popular way of connecting was AOL.

When I was around the age of 10 or 11 I can’t remember exactly when, my parents allowed me to have a TV in my room for the first time. It was during this time that I was able to watch a few episodes of Star Trek and Bill Nye the science guy before I was caught and told I would be punished if I was caught watching them again. What my parents didn’t realize at the time is that this was enough to at least plant a small seed in my mind that I personally believe is what allowed me to finally break free from religion later on, but is also another source of my internal struggle that nearly shattered my Mind.

The struggle began when I first started taking science classes in a public school environment free of the influence of religion as my parents could no longer afford to keep me home schooled. I began to learn the ideas of science and the scientific method and to me I found it absolutely at least most concepts. The problems began when the age of the Earth and Evolution came into play, my parents of course found out about it because being the kid I was, I said my teachers said the Earth is billions of years old, and that we evolved from a common ancestor with apes. My parents of course immediately told me to not listen to that information and that the earth was only thousands of years old and created by God and Evolution is a lie propagated by the devil.

The effects of being told Evolution is a lie and the Earth is young, pushed me away from biology, geology and astronomy classes because they conflicted with my “belief” because I didn’t want to go to hell by being tricked by the devil. However, my love of science didn’t fade, it instead shifted towards Chemistry and computers, with a little bit of physics in there as well.

This has all set the stage of what began to happen in the last 3-4 years prior to my deconversion from Christianity. What this had setup in my mind is in a sense a split, I had two sides to my personality in a sense. The part of me that wanted to follow God and not go to hell, and the other part that wanted to develop my scientific mind and see where the rabbit hole goes so to speak. My fear of hell and damnation kept me from allowing me to explore the scientific side up until April of 2015.

With type of split in my mind it setup a nasty set of conditions within my mind. What I would end up doing is obsessively repeating in my mind the sentence. I love God with all my heart, soul, mind and body, and I would endless repeat it over and over again until I distracted myself with another task. I would cover my right hand and forehead when I slept with my blankets and couldn’t fall asleep at night unless I did so. The reason for this is because I was taught that the devil will mark those on either their right hand or forehead with the number 666 indicating that person was fallen and doomed to hell and would work as an agent of Satan. I would hallucinate that the devil was in my room watching me and that demons were trying to take me, and think that things were in the shadows that weren't actually there. I'm relieved and overjoyed that these thoughts have now ceased after taking the plunge into reason.

In conclusion, it is my belief that if I had not taken the plunge into the area of reason that what had been happening in the paragraph above would have become worse and worse over time until I was driven quite literally insane. This is why I think if I had not become an Atheist when I did it wouldn't have ended well for me.


TLDR Version: Indoctrinated by fear of hell into Christianity, seed of reason planted to allow break into freedom later. Caused mind split between Science and Religion, caused hallucinations, paranoia, and Obsessive compulsive tendencies due to fear of going to hell.
Science and true religion work flawlessly together. Lots of Christians get it twisted.
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