How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
09-06-2015, 01:01 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(09-06-2015 12:49 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(09-06-2015 12:19 PM)tomilay Wrote:  I find it admirable. A subjective opinion. Nevertheless true.

I take it you don't find it admirable. That might as well be true. I have no issue with that.

I see it like saying John Wayne Gacy is more admirable than Ted Bundy because he did less harm in the long run. The CC may be less opposed to science but they still push a crapload of unsubstantiated woo.
Yes they do. And I do not admire that aspect.

If I may ask, would you consider yourself antitheist? I kind of sense that undercurrent in the forum.

I ask because, I am an atheist, but I do not see theism as a necessarily harmful thing.

If I had to choose where my son should spend time, some drug induced party or an afternoon at a church sponsored event where they may promote God, it's a no brainer to me.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-06-2015, 01:08 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(09-06-2015 01:01 PM)tomilay Wrote:  If I may ask, would you consider yourself antitheist? I kind of sense that undercurrent in the forum.

It depends on the specific definition but, in general, that's probably fair. I consider religious belief to be one of the primary factors that has retarded progress and induced suffering throughout history. The sooner it dies out the better.

Quote:If I had to choose where my son should spend time, some drug induced party or an afternoon at a church sponsored event where they may promote God, it's a no brainer to me.

I'd look for a third option as both of those are bad choices.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes unfogged's post
09-06-2015, 01:26 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(09-06-2015 09:47 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(08-06-2015 11:12 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  That still does not answer the question. So you give "church math", how do you plug numbers in and what does the output mean? This explains nothing.

Do the math. Churches that say "The Bible is wrong, use this book/tradition instead, Jesus isn't in charge, we are, jump through these hoops and give us money to be saved, and we're the only true church" are messed up, dude!

I don't think you or airport kid understood what I was getting at. I am not completely referring to physical numbers per se. Without defining what your answer means makes it meaningless. So is a larger value more unhealthy? You never say.

Let's break it down:

Quote:+Add to the Bible as authoritative "scriptures" aka Book of Mormon, etc.

How does one infer this in any type of weight? I would assume you (Q) would put the bible as more authoritative over the BOM as well as the apocrypha written in the first or second century whereas a morman would give the BOM much more weight. This is also ignoring any of the other gospels that were floating around that make claims about jesus or his life. Without any kind of way to discern which of these are "correct" you are in fact giving each of them equal weight by doing this. Additionally, how does this value change depending on which translation you use? I don't see how this part helps discern any actual truth/health of a particular church. You need to define your terms and what they mean.

Quote: -Subtract from the deity of Jesus

This again, does not mean anything. Jesus does not even claim to be a deity in every gospel we are aware of so again, how does this help discern on whether a teaching is good/bad true or false?

Quote: XMultiply the requirements of salvation (give money, be baptized in water, obey the pastor) to the sole requirement, trust in Jesus's atoning death and resurrection

Now you are actually putting numbers in a mathematical operation with something nebulous. How does one multiply "trust" with money, or baptism with "trust"? How does this baptism term change if the church says that full immersion and another says to pour it on your head and they have nearly the same theology? Without defining any terms, this again is pointless.

Quote: %Divide the body of Christ aka OUR church is the only true church, etc. (By the way, this last is a trait of the RCC)

Again, if each person did this, their denominator would always be higher since they almost always think that they are the true church, otherwise, they would probably go to that church. So if your belief that you are the truth of your church is 1 and others are less so (i.e. <1) then that would actually INCREASE the value of the numerator. If you want to then define that a higher value is less a christian (which is kind of silly IMO) that would lessen the number. Even more to the point, you would have to believe that another church is more than yours to get your final answer to be large. You actually just indicated that a "lesser" church is actually more healthy.

(09-06-2015 09:47 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Do the math. Churches that say "The Bible is wrong, use this book/tradition instead, Jesus isn't in charge, we are, jump through these hoops and give us money to be saved, and we're the only true church" are messed up, dude!

Your statement is not in any way indicative of what you said. If you try to use mathematical principles in an argument you are still bound by their mathematical implications otherwise, your example is just meaningless.

So OK, I'll do the "math" using your example.

The Bible is wrong (no arguments here), use this book instead (science books), Jesus isn't in charge (again, no argument), we are (which is true), jump through these hoops (you mean abide by the man-made laws?) and give us money (taxes), there is no correct church = atheism/agnosticism.

Well, I guess your "math" settles it.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 3 users Like The Organic Chemist's post
09-06-2015, 01:31 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(09-06-2015 01:08 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(09-06-2015 01:01 PM)tomilay Wrote:  If I may ask, would you consider yourself antitheist? I kind of sense that undercurrent in the forum.

It depends on the specific definition but, in general, that's probably fair. I consider religious belief to be one of the primary factors that has retarded progress and induced suffering throughout history. The sooner it dies out the better.

Quote:If I had to choose where my son should spend time, some drug induced party or an afternoon at a church sponsored event where they may promote God, it's a no brainer to me.

I'd look for a third option as both of those are bad choices.
I agree there have been some bloody trails left by religious related violence and conflict. And it's still happening today.

Can religion make the distinction between us and them easier? Yes. Is it really the cause? I think the jury is out on that one.

I would say the results are mixed. I too would rather not have my son go either of those events. But given no choice, it's a no brainer.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-06-2015, 01:54 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(09-06-2015 01:31 PM)tomilay Wrote:  Can religion make the distinction between us and them easier?

Not exactly sure what you mean by that. I don't see any point to reducing the distinction; a little woo isn't much better than a lot of woo from my perspective.

Quote:I too would rather not have my son go either of those events. But given no choice, it's a no brainer.

I would find it a difficult choice. Hitchens was right, religion poisons everything and a poisoned mind is difficult to treat.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes unfogged's post
09-06-2015, 02:01 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(09-06-2015 01:54 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(09-06-2015 01:31 PM)tomilay Wrote:  Can religion make the distinction between us and them easier?

Not exactly sure what you mean by that. I don't see any point to reducing the distinction; a little woo isn't much better than a lot of woo from my perspective.

Quote:I too would rather not have my son go either of those events. But given no choice, it's a no brainer.

I would find it a difficult choice. Hitchens was right, religion poisons everything and a poisoned mind is difficult to treat.

I think he means that religion was simply the tool for leaders to use to distinguish good guy vs bad guy...depending where you stand.

Doesn't make it any better.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-06-2015, 02:14 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(09-06-2015 01:54 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(09-06-2015 01:31 PM)tomilay Wrote:  Can religion make the distinction between us and them easier?

Not exactly sure what you mean by that. I don't see any point to reducing the distinction; a little woo isn't much better than a lot of woo from my perspective.

Quote:I too would rather not have my son go either of those events. But given no choice, it's a no brainer.

I would find it a difficult choice. Hitchens was right, religion poisons everything and a poisoned mind is difficult to treat.
The first point I make is in response to your claim that religion is responsible for much suffering. I take it to mean that you see it as a source of conflict and wars.

It is not obvious to me, that religion per se is responsible for such conflict. But rather that it can accentuate and escalate divisions that are otherwise already in place.

Case in point. The recent, religious related violence, in Central Africa, only took on a religious tenor, after the minority Muslim rebels had captured the capital.

Prior to that, it was just a normal struggle for power with no religious motivations. Religion then became a rallying point for the defeated group, when they could not find a more effective way, like ethnicity, to unite the majority population against the victors.

I see religion throughout historical conflict in much the same way. A unifying factor rather than a cause of conflict. If it's not religion, it will be race, ethnicity, tribe, clan, family, brother against brother...

I respect Hitchens. But I disagree with that blanket assertion.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-06-2015, 02:36 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
Somehow I just got to the OP. Maybe I missed it while scrolling through all the other posts. Either way, I can sympathize as my fundamentalist indoctrination drew me into mind numbing fear of going to hell and missing the rapture. I used to get screamed at (as well as the rest of the congregation) from the platform about being separated from the world, not watching or owning a tv, not having long hair, not wearing shorts, not going to movies, not marrying or dating women that did any of those things. I had a love of travel and would have set up shop elsewhere after college but I dreaded the fact that if I moved out of state away from the church I attended that I would miss the rapture and go to hell.

I still get swallowed by fear every once in a while when I come across news articles of preachers who guarantee that the rapture is the next event on the prophetic calendar. I literally have to start reasoning with myself and walking through the steps as to why this isn't logical or reasonable.

**Crickets** -- God
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Tonechaser77's post
09-06-2015, 04:47 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(09-06-2015 02:14 PM)tomilay Wrote:  I take it to mean that you see it as a source of conflict and wars.

Somewhat, but that is more a symptom. My real disgust for religion is at a much more personal level. I hate the way it warps minds into accepting assertions from authority without evidence and the way it denigrates critical thinking.

In fact, I see you as a good example of the harm it does. You seem to be a basically intelligent person but your acknowledgement of the design argument and others suggests to me that you are still constrained by religious indoctrination. That I find inexcusable on the part of the religion.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
09-06-2015, 04:57 PM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(09-06-2015 04:47 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(09-06-2015 02:14 PM)tomilay Wrote:  I take it to mean that you see it as a source of conflict and wars.

Somewhat, but that is more a symptom. My real disgust for religion is at a much more personal level. I hate the way it warps minds into accepting assertions from authority without evidence and the way it denigrates critical thinking.

In fact, I see you as a good example of the harm it does. You seem to be a basically intelligent person but your acknowledgement of the design argument and others suggests to me that you are still constrained by religious indoctrination. That I find inexcusable on the part of the religion.
You may not believe this but you would hard pressed to find a more faithless person than myself.

Just because I acknowledge things that could make sense to a lot of reasonable people does not mean I share those beliefs.

Some teachings can be harmful. Others, neutral. Some actually admirable. It's not a perfect world.

We have to remember that what we observe is not nature herself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning ~ Werner Heisenberg
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: