How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
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16-06-2015, 09:17 AM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(15-06-2015 10:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(11-06-2015 10:54 AM)Worom Wrote:  I second the what the actual fuck statement that was given, I see that Godwin's law has now been invoked. On another note Hitler was Catholic and sincerely believed based on his writings that he was doing the work of God. Your argument that a lot of "us" have socio-economic worldviews that would justify the holocaust quite frankly disgusts me to no end. You make that accusation with no evidence and no basis and seems to be driven out of spite. You sir epitomize how toxic religion is and have in a single stroke invalidated every single argument you have made in this thread and have proven my original post still holds very true.

And since we are down the rabbit hole now, I will present you the following I'm stealing the argument from the true scotsman but it has an incredible amount of power. Lets see if you can answer it

1. If existence has metaphysical primacy over consciousness, then the Christian God does not exist.

2. Existence has metaphysical primacy over consciousness.

Therefore the Christian God does not exist.

Hitler stopped going to church as a pre-teen and spent most of his adult life hassling Christians, Jews and other theists. If he's a Christian, most TTA members would be as well!

I'm glad you think existence has primacy over consciousness. The issue is not the dichotomies of consciousness and existence but whether you believe consciousness is an abstraction or a reality. Hint: If you think your personal consciousness/sentience is an abstraction, you are asserting you don't exist. Since both my consciousness and God's being/consciousness are self-evident to me, I would assert that I exist and God exists.

This still doesn't change that he thought he was doing God's work which he wrote in his own book, he was baptized as a Catholic, attended monastery school, was confirmed as a soldier of God. And the Catholic Church never excommunicated him and in fact prayed for his success and survival every year on his birthday. Here is a quote from one of his speeches, care to explain how he wasn't a Christian??

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

As for your second point, an axiom has to be self evident to everyone, I.E. existence exists, since God isn't self evident to everyone the argument doesn't work. However I digress it was pointed out by others that there are flaws in the premises of the argument that I was using from the true scottsman so it has to be thrown out.

“We can judge our progress by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers, our willingness to embrace what is true rather than what feels good.”
― Carl Sagan
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16-06-2015, 09:54 AM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(15-06-2015 10:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Hitler stopped going to church as a pre-teen and spent most of his adult life hassling Christians, Jews and other theists. If he's a Christian, most TTA members would be as well!
---

Uhm, what do you mean when you say that? Exactly what is your intent with that phrase in bold? I do not understand what you are insisting upon there.

As others have pointed out, A. Hitler was raised Catholic and was throughout his life a Christian. Online, there are numerous photographs of him meeting with Vatican officials and the Vatican has even acknowledged these meetings and his Christian beliefs.

So really, what is your intent in bringing Hitler into a discussion with atheists?
Are you trying to conflate the two? If so, that is a smarmy tactic of someone trying to insult. Such a tactic only renders one ignorant, even in the eyes of the disinterested.

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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16-06-2015, 10:16 AM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
[Image: fuehrer_vs_atheism_en_800.jpg]

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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17-06-2015, 08:04 AM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(16-06-2015 08:53 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  
(16-06-2015 08:42 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Doing better than Mein Kampf wouldn't be difficult.

And yet, that is STILL less violent than the bible.

Um, calling for the forced exile and/or extinction of European Jewry in the teeming millions is less violent that the Bible? You must be thinking the Flood narrative is TRUE, I guess. Or do you equate the real horrors of Mein Kampf with what you call myths? Do you get ticked out at the jihads in the Dune saga? The rages of Voldemort upon Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry?

Be consistent. I will assume you are joking in very poor taste here. I know millions of skeptics as well as millions of Jews, Christians and Muslims would be gravely (and righteously!) offended to hear you say the Holy Bible is worse than Mein Kampf. Clearly you've read neither book at all!

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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17-06-2015, 08:11 AM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(16-06-2015 09:17 AM)Worom Wrote:  
(15-06-2015 10:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Hitler stopped going to church as a pre-teen and spent most of his adult life hassling Christians, Jews and other theists. If he's a Christian, most TTA members would be as well!

I'm glad you think existence has primacy over consciousness. The issue is not the dichotomies of consciousness and existence but whether you believe consciousness is an abstraction or a reality. Hint: If you think your personal consciousness/sentience is an abstraction, you are asserting you don't exist. Since both my consciousness and God's being/consciousness are self-evident to me, I would assert that I exist and God exists.

This still doesn't change that he thought he was doing God's work which he wrote in his own book, he was baptized as a Catholic, attended monastery school, was confirmed as a soldier of God. And the Catholic Church never excommunicated him and in fact prayed for his success and survival every year on his birthday. Here is a quote from one of his speeches, care to explain how he wasn't a Christian??

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

As for your second point, an axiom has to be self evident to everyone, I.E. existence exists, since God isn't self evident to everyone the argument doesn't work. However I digress it was pointed out by others that there are flaws in the premises of the argument that I was using from the true scottsman so it has to be thrown out.

I think you may misunderstand how Hitler changed his rhetoric to suit his audience. Elsewhere, he was clear that he thought Jesus was a weak Jew, and that he abhorred both Jesus's sacrifice and substitutionary atonement! Reminds me of someone... Drinking Beverage

Again, there is difference between making an NTS fallacy and pointing out when someone is so hypocritical, they cannot be an adherent of what they claim to adhere to. To say one is a Christian and then kill priests and nuns in death camps seems more than inconsistent--it makes one's Christianity a front. We're talking about killing thousands of "fellow Christians" and even fellow Catholics who were neither soldiers nor aggressors.

Do you know the etymology of the word "hypocrite"? It comes from the Greek and means "actor". When Jesus calls the rabbis hypocrites, he is saying they may be Jewish religious leaders but only acting regarding their claims of deep personal connections to God. When we say Hitler was a religious hypocrite, we Christians are referring to his play acting at being a Christian to deceive some of the Christians some of the time.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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17-06-2015, 08:14 AM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(16-06-2015 09:54 AM)kim Wrote:  
(15-06-2015 10:17 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Hitler stopped going to church as a pre-teen and spent most of his adult life hassling Christians, Jews and other theists. If he's a Christian, most TTA members would be as well!
---

Uhm, what do you mean when you say that? Exactly what is your intent with that phrase in bold? I do not understand what you are insisting upon there.

As others have pointed out, A. Hitler was raised Catholic and was throughout his life a Christian. Online, there are numerous photographs of him meeting with Vatican officials and the Vatican has even acknowledged these meetings and his Christian beliefs.

So really, what is your intent in bringing Hitler into a discussion with atheists?
Are you trying to conflate the two? If so, that is a smarmy tactic of someone trying to insult. Such a tactic only renders one ignorant, even in the eyes of the disinterested.

Repeating, if you are a person who insists that Hitler was more than a lapsed Catholic or that some of his religious training influenced some of his actions, if you say that someone who actually despised Jesus, despised Christians, and didn't attend church past his pre-teen years remained an active Christian, well, that would define a lot of TTA members here--and they would be Christians, and not atheists.

Personally, I'm delighted to be a born again Christian, and the fact that my Christianity is living and active distances me from Hitler.

PS. I didn't look through earlier posts, but I believe someone else Godwin'ed this thread. I was only responding.

I'm told atheists on forums like TTA are bitter and angry. If you are not, your posts to me will be respectful, insightful and thoughtful. Prove me wrong by your adherence to decent behavior.
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17-06-2015, 09:52 AM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(17-06-2015 08:11 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(16-06-2015 09:17 AM)Worom Wrote:  This still doesn't change that he thought he was doing God's work which he wrote in his own book, he was baptized as a Catholic, attended monastery school, was confirmed as a soldier of God. And the Catholic Church never excommunicated him and in fact prayed for his success and survival every year on his birthday. Here is a quote from one of his speeches, care to explain how he wasn't a Christian??

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow my self to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice… And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows . For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people." –Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)

As for your second point, an axiom has to be self evident to everyone, I.E. existence exists, since God isn't self evident to everyone the argument doesn't work. However I digress it was pointed out by others that there are flaws in the premises of the argument that I was using from the true scottsman so it has to be thrown out.

I think you may misunderstand how Hitler changed his rhetoric to suit his audience. Elsewhere, he was clear that he thought Jesus was a weak Jew, and that he abhorred both Jesus's sacrifice and substitutionary atonement! Reminds me of someone... Drinking Beverage

Again, there is difference between making an NTS fallacy and pointing out when someone is so hypocritical, they cannot be an adherent of what they claim to adhere to. To say one is a Christian and then kill priests and nuns in death camps seems more than inconsistent--it makes one's Christianity a front. We're talking about killing thousands of "fellow Christians" and even fellow Catholics who were neither soldiers nor aggressors.

Do you know the etymology of the word "hypocrite"? It comes from the Greek and means "actor". When Jesus calls the rabbis hypocrites, he is saying they may be Jewish religious leaders but only acting regarding their claims of deep personal connections to God. When we say Hitler was a religious hypocrite, we Christians are referring to his play acting at being a Christian to deceive some of the Christians some of the time.

For your first point, you're reminds me of someone implication is a low blow at best. As for Hitler thinking Jesus was a weak jew, that argument doesn't hold up as Hitler doubted Jesus was a Jew at all.

As for the no true scottsman fallacy it does apply, Hitler never renounced the church or his faith, he hated the church's impulses of caring for the weak, infirm, and mentally handicapped, who he wished to destroy. And again he never doubted the divinity of Jesus, just his jewishness.

Credit for below goes to goodwithoutgod, I would use the quote function but it would get reduced down. I made some grammatical modifications to fit within the conversation flow better.

Was Adolf Hitler an atheist? Hitler cannot be called a church going christian, but neither can he be used as an example of an atheist. Hardly the product of an anti-christian childhood and upbringing, he attended mass with his devout mother and was a choirboy, which he quite enjoyed. Indeed, the majesty and pageantry of the church heavily influenced the staging in Nazi rallies and rituals.

Born and raised a roman catholic, Hitler remained a nominal catholic for the rest of his life. he never officially renounced the church or his membership in it, but he was hostile to the church's impulses of caring for the weak, infirm, and mentally handicapped, who he wished to destroy. Hitler never doubted the divinity of Jesus, just his jewishness, convinced that he was actually an Aryan. The portraits of a fair haired, blue eyed Jesus that grace so many American homes would have doubtless met with his approval.

Examples of Hitler's actions
1) When party secretary martin bormann closed a convent, Hitler reversed the order.

2) Hitler allowed the German army to have catholic and protestant chaplains in field. In fact the troops wore a belt buckle embossed with the inscription "god is with us".

3) In endless monologues to those around him, Hitler never once professed to be an atheist or unbeliever in the Abraham god of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. In particular, he had the greatest admiration for Islam, particularly its military tradition.

4) Survivor of over a dozen assassination plots and attempts, Hitler credited "divine providence" and "almighty god" for saving him to complete his great mission. On the eve of the soviet invasion, Hitler ended his address to his troops with "Almighty god bless our arms".

5) The first foreign policy coup of nazi germany was the "Concordat with the Vatican", allowing the church independence and catholic schools ot remain open in exchange for staying out of politics. The church also "welcomed the way" when operation barbarossa..the campaign against the godless soviet union was launched. Hitler, SS chief Heinrich Himmler, and architect of the holocaust Reinhard Heydrich, nominal catholics all, were never excommunicated by the holy sec. To this very day they remain catholics in good standing.

6) When overzealous nazi party officials removed crucifixes from classroom walls in bavaria, hitler personally reversed the order and had them rehung.

Now, some of the myths surrounding hitler's atheism can be attributed to an inaccurate and poorly translated version of Table Talk. Table Talk is a book of transcribed conversations that hitler had with those close to him. Some versions of this book that were translated from german to other languages contained fabricated statements not found in the original german manuscript.

This is all irrelevant, with or without religion good people do good things, evil people will do evil things, for good people to do evil things that takes religion

“We can judge our progress by the courage of our questions and the depth of our answers, our willingness to embrace what is true rather than what feels good.”
― Carl Sagan
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17-06-2015, 10:24 AM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(17-06-2015 08:04 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(16-06-2015 08:53 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  And yet, that is STILL less violent than the bible.

Um, calling for the forced exile and/or extinction of European Jewry in the teeming millions is less violent that the Bible? You must be thinking the Flood narrative is TRUE, I guess. Or do you equate the real horrors of Mein Kampf with what you call myths? Do you get ticked out at the jihads in the Dune saga? The rages of Voldemort upon Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry?

Be consistent. I will assume you are joking in very poor taste here. I know millions of skeptics as well as millions of Jews, Christians and Muslims would be gravely (and righteously!) offended to hear you say the Holy Bible is worse than Mein Kampf. Clearly you've read neither book at all!

For the purposes of this argument, it doesn't matter whether or not the violence in the Bible is TRUE. It is demonstrably a more violent book than Mein Kampf. God kills the entire population of the world (including animals), wipes out entire cities (Sodom and Gomorrah), kills the firstborn of every family in Egypt (including animals) that doesn't happen to be Jewish, drowns the entire Egyptian army in the Red Sea, commands the Israelites to commit genocide over and over again, and finally consigns all of humanity except for a small handful to burn forever in a lake of fire. Sorry, but Hitler can't touch that for violence. And the worst part of it is that millions of Christians believe that all this is TRUE, and they still insist that God is "good". Boggles the mind...
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17-06-2015, 11:30 AM
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(17-06-2015 08:04 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  
(16-06-2015 08:53 AM)The Organic Chemist Wrote:  And yet, that is STILL less violent than the bible.

Um, calling for the forced exile and/or extinction of European Jewry in the teeming millions is less violent that the Bible? You must be thinking the Flood narrative is TRUE, I guess. Or do you equate the real horrors of Mein Kampf with what you call myths? Do you get ticked out at the jihads in the Dune saga? The rages of Voldemort upon Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry?

Be consistent. I will assume you are joking in very poor taste here. I know millions of skeptics as well as millions of Jews, Christians and Muslims would be gravely (and righteously!) offended to hear you say the Holy Bible is worse than Mein Kampf. Clearly you've read neither book at all!

Q - how are Moses and the god of the OT different from Hitler and the Nazis?

“Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up, must come down, down, down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it.”
— Dan Barker —
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17-06-2015, 01:17 PM (This post was last modified: 17-06-2015 08:50 PM by The Organic Chemist.)
RE: How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind
(17-06-2015 08:04 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Um, calling for the forced exile and/or extinction of European Jewry in the teeming millions is less violent that the Bible?

The bible also calls for the same thing in it's own way by saying that god gave the jews land and ran off or killed the inhabitants that were already there. The bible also does call for the mass killing of people. Body count is irrelevant, it is the demand that is important.

Quote: Deuteronomy 13
12 If you hear it said about one of the towns the Lord your God is giving you to live in 13 that troublemakers have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), 14 then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, 15 you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. You must destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock. 16 You are to gather all the plunder of the town into the middle of the public square and completely burn the town and all its plunder as a whole burnt offering to the Lord your God. That town is to remain a ruin forever, never to be rebuilt, 17 and none of the condemned things[c] are to be found in your hands. Then the Lord will turn from his fierce anger, will show you mercy, and will have compassion on you. He will increase your numbers, as he promised on oath to your ancestors— 18 because you obey the Lord your God by keeping all his commands that I am giving you today and doing what is right in his eyes.

Quote:Ezekiel 9
3 Now the glory of the God of Israel went up from above the cherubim, where it had been, and moved to the threshold of the temple. Then the Lord called to the man clothed in linen who had the writing kit at his side 4 and said to him, “Go throughout the city of Jerusalem and put a mark on the foreheads of those who grieve and lament over all the detestable things that are done in it.” 5 As I listened, he said to the others, “Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. 6 Slaughter the old men, the young men and women, the mothers and children, but do not touch anyone who has the mark. Begin at my sanctuary.” So they began with the old men who were in front of the temple.
7 Then he said to them, “Defile the temple and fill the courts with the slain. Go!” So they went out and began killing throughout the city. 8 While they were killing and I was left alone, I fell facedown, crying out, “Alas, Sovereign Lord! Are you going to destroy the entire remnant of Israel in this outpouring of your wrath on Jerusalem?”
Substitute "German" for "Mark" and how is this more violent than what the Germans were doing in Russia?

Quote: Joshua 10
40 So Joshua subdued the whole region, including the hill country, the Negev, the western foothills and the mountain slopes, together with all their kings. He left no survivors. He totally destroyed all who breathed, [b]just as the Lord, the God of Israel, had commanded. 41 Joshua subdued them from Kadesh Barnea to Gaza and from the whole region of Goshen to Gibeon. 42 All these kings and their lands Joshua conquered in one campaign, because the Lord, the God of Israel, fought for Israel.

There are others, I am sure you have another apologetic answer for these.

(17-06-2015 08:04 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  You must be thinking the Flood narrative is TRUE, I guess. Or do you equate the real horrors of Mein Kampf with what you call myths? Do you get ticked out at the jihads in the Dune saga? The rages of Voldemort upon Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry?

Outside of the Shoah, thankfully, these are all fake so there is nothing to get mad about. If Adolph could have flooded the world, he probably would have and like you, the skinhead apologists would be defending him as well.

(17-06-2015 08:04 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Be consistent. I will assume you are joking in very poor taste here. I know millions of skeptics as well as millions of Jews, Christians and Muslims would be gravely (and righteously!) offended to hear you say the Holy Bible is worse than Mein Kampf. Clearly you've read neither book at all!

Actually, I have read both. Although I read a translation of Mein Kampf since my German was not good enough at the time. I also read the bible frequently (translations of course). That is how I knew about the differences in the geneology of Joseph in Matthew and Luke and also how I knew your recent apologetic response was garbage. I also am part Jewish and I am less offended by what I said as I am for your incoherent defense of the bible that you keep up on despite the numerous times that you have been shown to be incorrect. It was merely pointing out that you were, in fact, attempting to set-up a NTS fallacy.

"If we are honest—and scientists have to be—we must admit that religion is a jumble of false assertions, with no basis in reality.
The very idea of God is a product of the human imagination."
- Paul Dirac
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