How Religion Nearly Shattered my Mind

[The Q Continuum]

(17-06-2015 09:52 AM)Worom Wrote:  

(17-06-2015 08:11 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  I think you may misunderstand how Hitler changed his rhetoric to suit his audience. Elsewhere, he was clear that he thought Jesus was a weak Jew, and that he abhorred both Jesus's sacrifice and substitutionary atonement! Reminds me of someone...

Again, there is difference between making an NTS fallacy and pointing out when someone is so hypocritical, they cannot be an adherent of what they claim to adhere to. To say one is a Christian and then kill priests and nuns in death camps seems more than inconsistent--it makes one's Christianity a front. We're talking about killing thousands of "fellow Christians" and even fellow Catholics who were neither soldiers nor aggressors.

Do you know the etymology of the word "hypocrite"? It comes from the Greek and means "actor". When Jesus calls the rabbis hypocrites, he is saying they may be Jewish religious leaders but only acting regarding their claims of deep personal connections to God. When we say Hitler was a religious hypocrite, we Christians are referring to his play acting at being a Christian to deceive some of the Christians some of the time.

For your first point, you're reminds me of someone implication is a low blow at best. As for Hitler thinking Jesus was a weak jew, that argument doesn't hold up as Hitler doubted Jesus was a Jew at all.

As for the no true scottsman fallacy it does apply, Hitler never renounced the church or his faith, he hated the church's impulses of caring for the weak, infirm, and mentally handicapped, who he wished to destroy. And again he never doubted the divinity of Jesus, just his jewishness.

Credit for below goes to goodwithoutgod, I would use the quote function but it would get reduced down. I made some grammatical modifications to fit within the conversation flow better.

Was Adolf Hitler an atheist? Hitler cannot be called a church going christian, but neither can he be used as an example of an atheist. Hardly the product of an anti-christian childhood and upbringing, he attended mass with his devout mother and was a choirboy, which he quite enjoyed. Indeed, the majesty and pageantry of the church heavily influenced the staging in Nazi rallies and rituals.

Born and raised a roman catholic, Hitler remained a nominal catholic for the rest of his life. he never officially renounced the church or his membership in it, but he was hostile to the church's impulses of caring for the weak, infirm, and mentally handicapped, who he wished to destroy. Hitler never doubted the divinity of Jesus, just his jewishness, convinced that he was actually an Aryan. The portraits of a fair haired, blue eyed Jesus that grace so many American homes would have doubtless met with his approval.

Examples of Hitler's actions
1) When party secretary martin bormann closed a convent, Hitler reversed the order.

2) Hitler allowed the German army to have catholic and protestant chaplains in field. In fact the troops wore a belt buckle embossed with the inscription "god is with us".

3) In endless monologues to those around him, Hitler never once professed to be an atheist or unbeliever in the Abraham god of Islam, Judaism, and Christianity. In particular, he had the greatest admiration for Islam, particularly its military tradition.

4) Survivor of over a dozen assassination plots and attempts, Hitler credited "divine providence" and "almighty god" for saving him to complete his great mission. On the eve of the soviet invasion, Hitler ended his address to his troops with "Almighty god bless our arms".

5) The first foreign policy coup of nazi germany was the "Concordat with the Vatican", allowing the church independence and catholic schools ot remain open in exchange for staying out of politics. The church also "welcomed the way" when operation barbarossa..the campaign against the godless soviet union was launched. Hitler, SS chief Heinrich Himmler, and architect of the holocaust Reinhard Heydrich, nominal catholics all, were never excommunicated by the holy sec. To this very day they remain catholics in good standing.

6) When overzealous nazi party officials removed crucifixes from classroom walls in bavaria, hitler personally reversed the order and had them rehung.

Now, some of the myths surrounding hitler's atheism can be attributed to an inaccurate and poorly translated version of Table Talk. Table Talk is a book of transcribed conversations that hitler had with those close to him. Some versions of this book that were translated from german to other languages contained fabricated statements not found in the original german manuscript.

This is all irrelevant, with or without religion good people do good things, evil people will do evil things, for good people to do evil things that takes religion

There are a number of issues with your post. Most of which are simple to resolve. Two examples I'd highlight:

1. The "God is with us" belt buckle existed on German uniforms even prior to WWI. This is a skeptic's canard.

2. Hitler had to have doubted Jesus's divinity, since he made it plain HE, ADOLPH HITLER, WAS THE MESSIAH USHERING IN A 1,000 ARYAN MILLENNIUM.

No, Hitler wasn't an atheist. He was an antichrist.

[The Q Continuum]

(17-06-2015 10:24 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  

(17-06-2015 08:04 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  Um, calling for the forced exile and/or extinction of European Jewry in the teeming millions is less violent that the Bible? You must be thinking the Flood narrative is TRUE, I guess. Or do you equate the real horrors of Mein Kampf with what you call myths? Do you get ticked out at the jihads in the Dune saga? The rages of Voldemort upon Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry?

Be consistent. I will assume you are joking in very poor taste here. I know millions of skeptics as well as millions of Jews, Christians and Muslims would be gravely (and righteously!) offended to hear you say the Holy Bible is worse than Mein Kampf. Clearly you've read neither book at all!

For the purposes of this argument, it doesn't matter whether or not the violence in the Bible is TRUE. It is demonstrably a more violent book than Mein Kampf. God kills the entire population of the world (including animals), wipes out entire cities (Sodom and Gomorrah), kills the firstborn of every family in Egypt (including animals) that doesn't happen to be Jewish, drowns the entire Egyptian army in the Red Sea, commands the Israelites to commit genocide over and over again, and finally consigns all of humanity except for a small handful to burn forever in a lake of fire. Sorry, but Hitler can't touch that for violence. And the worst part of it is that millions of Christians believe that all this is TRUE, and they still insist that God is "good". Boggles the mind...

In any of your examples, did God kill innocent adults? But be sure to explain how you know what good and evil and innocence and lack of innocence are, using only dialectical materialist, relativist and Darwinist views. Then judge my God. Ready, set, go!

[Chas]

(18-06-2015 08:43 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  

(17-06-2015 10:24 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  For the purposes of this argument, it doesn't matter whether or not the violence in the Bible is TRUE. It is demonstrably a more violent book than Mein Kampf. God kills the entire population of the world (including animals), wipes out entire cities (Sodom and Gomorrah), kills the firstborn of every family in Egypt (including animals) that doesn't happen to be Jewish, drowns the entire Egyptian army in the Red Sea, commands the Israelites to commit genocide over and over again, and finally consigns all of humanity except for a small handful to burn forever in a lake of fire. Sorry, but Hitler can't touch that for violence. And the worst part of it is that millions of Christians believe that all this is TRUE, and they still insist that God is "good". Boggles the mind...

In any of your examples, did God kill innocent adults?

Yes, millions of them.

Quote:But be sure to explain how you know what good and evil and innocence and lack of innocence are, using only dialectical materialist, relativist and Darwinist views. Then judge my God. Ready, set, go!

Demonstrate that millions of people that were said to have been killed were, in fact, deserving of being slaughtered - using only non-Biblical sources.

[Grasshopper]

(18-06-2015 08:43 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  

(17-06-2015 10:24 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  For the purposes of this argument, it doesn't matter whether or not the violence in the Bible is TRUE. It is demonstrably a more violent book than Mein Kampf. God kills the entire population of the world (including animals), wipes out entire cities (Sodom and Gomorrah), kills the firstborn of every family in Egypt (including animals) that doesn't happen to be Jewish, drowns the entire Egyptian army in the Red Sea, commands the Israelites to commit genocide over and over again, and finally consigns all of humanity except for a small handful to burn forever in a lake of fire. Sorry, but Hitler can't touch that for violence. And the worst part of it is that millions of Christians believe that all this is TRUE, and they still insist that God is "good". Boggles the mind...

In any of your examples, did God kill innocent adults? But be sure to explain how you know what good and evil and innocence and lack of innocence are, using only dialectical materialist, relativist and Darwinist views. Then judge my God. Ready, set, go!

(1) I said nothing about innocence or guilt. I simply pointed out that the Bible is a more violent (much more violent) book than Mein Kampf -- that God, if you believe the Bible, has killed many many times more people than Hitler -- and promises to do much worse than that to millions more. You cannot dispute this without making yourself look like an idiot.

(2) We could argue about whether there even is such a thing as an "innocent" adult, but we don't need to -- because the Bible says that God killed millions of innocent children and animals, and ordered the Israelites to do the same. One of the Psalms celebrates smashing little babies' heads against the rocks. If babies aren't innocent, the word is meaningless.

Yes, I'm judging your God. He's an asshole.

[The Organic Chemist]

(18-06-2015 08:43 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  In any of your examples, did God kill innocent adults? But be sure to explain how you know what good and evil and innocence and lack of innocence are, using only dialectical materialist, relativist and Darwinist views. Then judge my God. Ready, set, go!

Only the killing of innocent adults? So, are you then excusing the killing of children? I don't need anything other than his own words to demonstrate you're wrong.

(17-06-2015 10:24 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  wipes out entire cities (Sodom and Gomorrah),

The angels never search the entire city, they weren't there even a night. So how do you know that there were not the 10 good people that Abraham pleaded for? They never search. A group of douchebags want to have sex with the angels and that immediately means that everyone in the city is "bad". Maybe it was customary for them to have sex with strangers. After all, god never says homosexuality is bad until Leviticus which is long after this event. People like you love to say that we get our morals from above but you neglect to think that if these people were never told that it is "bad", they would not think there is anything wrong with it and therefore not guilty of anything. Kind of like charging a person with drunk driving before the automobile was invented.

(17-06-2015 10:24 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  kills the firstborn of every family in Egypt (including animals) that doesn't happen to be Jewish,

God states in Exodus 3:21 “And I will make the Egyptians favorably disposed toward this people, so that when you leave you will not go empty-handed." So he will make the Egyptians look favorably on the jews. Ignoring the fact that this violates the free will argument that christians love to lob our way when it suits them, this is indicating that there are or will be Egyptians that are sympathetic to the Jews. It never says that all Egyptians are in favor to the slavery of the Jews. Anyway, per the directives in Leviticus 25:44, the Egyptians were perfectly fine since the Jews started out as foreigners. So if the decree of Leviticus is good because everything god decrees is good, what the egyptians were doing was actually not bad because god seems to have no problem with slavery as long as they are foreigners. They therefore, should be considered innocent. This is also completely ignoring that the Angel of Death also killed slaves as stated in Exodus 11 and 12. The slaves who just happened to not be Jewish were also killed. Bear in mind that a 30 year old man can still be a 1st born. So yes, god kills innocents here too.

(17-06-2015 10:24 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  drowns the entire Egyptian army in the Red Sea,

So you maintain that just because a guy was in the Egyptian military, he is not innocent because of following orders? How many of these guys lost a brother, father, or son recently? You are making far more assumptions than any of us are.

(17-06-2015 10:24 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  ...commands the Israelites to commit genocide over and over again

I know this has been pointed out to you in the past, Q. You are the one making the claim that none of these people are innocent and the stories (with the possible exception of Sodom) never actually claim that they are all completely evil.

(17-06-2015 10:24 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  and finally consigns all of humanity except for a small handful to burn forever in a lake of fire.

This one is pretty self explanatory. You don't get heaven for the simple crime of not believing in god. That's it.

There are other examples though of where god does kill people for doing absolutely nothing wrong. I absolutely can judge your construct of god and it is an absolute monster.

[Banjo]

(18-06-2015 08:36 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  There are a number of issues with your post. Most of which are simple to resolve. Two examples I'd highlight:

1. The "God is with us" belt buckle existed on German uniforms even prior to WWI. This is a skeptic's canard.

2. Hitler had to have doubted Jesus's divinity, since he made it plain HE, ADOLPH HITLER, WAS THE MESSIAH USHERING IN A 1,000 ARYAN MILLENNIUM.

No, Hitler wasn't an atheist. He was an antichrist.

Hitler was a theist who used his religion to move the masses.

Mentioning the belt buckle only proves that Germany was a Christian nation. The crosses on the side and wings of the aircraft are called balkenkreuz, a Christian symbol.



Adolf Hitler always invoked god in his speeches. Especially in his book. Which I read.

"Anyone who dares to lay hands on the highest image of the Lord commits sacrilege against the benevolent creator of this miracle and contributes to the expulsion from paradise."

- Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf Vol. 2 Chapter 1

" "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.." "

Here is a passage from the bible that is not that different in nature.

Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers.”
—Acts 7:51-52

Hitler was not an anti Christ. That title is a pathetic excuse to avoid responsibility. Hitler was a devoted Catholic with delusions of grandeur and an anti Semite.

[The Q Continuum]

(18-06-2015 08:59 AM)Chas Wrote:  

(18-06-2015 08:43 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  In any of your examples, did God kill innocent adults?

Yes, millions of them.

Quote:But be sure to explain how you know what good and evil and innocence and lack of innocence are, using only dialectical materialist, relativist and Darwinist views. Then judge my God. Ready, set, go!

Demonstrate that millions of people that were said to have been killed were, in fact, deserving of being slaughtered - using only non-Biblical sources.

I don't understand. I thought you said I'm a Bible thumper and don't rely on non-Bible sources. Be consistent.

[Chas]

(19-06-2015 09:07 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  

(18-06-2015 08:59 AM)Chas Wrote:  Yes, millions of them.


Demonstrate that millions of people that were said to have been killed were, in fact, deserving of being slaughtered - using only non-Biblical sources.

I don't understand. I thought you said I'm a Bible thumper and don't rely on non-Bible sources. Be consistent.

Please show where I ever said that.

I am consistent - the Bible is not evidence.

[The Q Continuum]

(18-06-2015 09:33 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  

(18-06-2015 08:43 AM)The Q Continuum Wrote:  In any of your examples, did God kill innocent adults? But be sure to explain how you know what good and evil and innocence and lack of innocence are, using only dialectical materialist, relativist and Darwinist views. Then judge my God. Ready, set, go!

(1) I said nothing about innocence or guilt. I simply pointed out that the Bible is a more violent (much more violent) book than Mein Kampf -- that God, if you believe the Bible, has killed many many times more people than Hitler -- and promises to do much worse than that to millions more. You cannot dispute this without making yourself look like an idiot.

(2) We could argue about whether there even is such a thing as an "innocent" adult, but we don't need to -- because the Bible says that God killed millions of innocent children and animals, and ordered the Israelites to do the same. One of the Psalms celebrates smashing little babies' heads against the rocks. If babies aren't innocent, the word is meaningless.

Yes, I'm judging your God. He's an asshole.

I did a sermon on that Psalm last year. The message was about Christians being real. The Jews were brought forcibly to Babylon, along the route, pregnant mothers had their fetuses cut out, others were raped. That's really how the Psalmist felt, "Happy is he who kills your kids!" ... it's also a double prophecy, for 1) the Nazis did this, twirling Jewish toddlers then dashing their heads against rocks and concrete and 2) the Psalmist knows a power will overtake Babylon, it wasn't the Jews who would be killing the babies of Babylon.

God forbid people in the Bible should be real or emotional, eh?

[The Q Continuum]

Quote:Only the killing of innocent adults? So, are you then excusing the killing of children? I don't need anything other than his own words to demonstrate you're wrong.

For a scientist, you sometimes come off as highly illogical. You are saying on one hand that children are innocent but also that adults, who are not innocent, commit no moral crimes (sin) because you don't believe in sin or judgment.

The very fact that you call children innocent is a witness to you that you know adults are sinners. This is one reason why Christians mark atheists as deniers.