How White Nationalism Was Reinvigorated
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19-10-2017, 02:11 PM
RE: How White Nationalism Was Reinvigorated
(19-10-2017 01:52 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(19-10-2017 12:16 PM)Stefan Mayerschoff Wrote:  My take is that you're acting like an asshole, and intentionally being obtuse about the entire thing.
Your definition of obtuse involves going point for point and line by line and offering multiple arguments, rereading the conversation when she asked me to in good faith, and repeatedly making requests for clarification from her as obtuse? Really?
I'm an asshole sure, but that's my default response when people lie to my face and keep doing so after a demonstration of the lie has been made.

(19-10-2017 12:16 PM)Stefan Mayerschoff Wrote:  Even a casual read of Rachel's post doesn't jive with the extreme way in which you are interpreting it.
She has said that it's a typical tactic of those that are devoid of ideas to deflect, she said that he was deflecting, she continued by saying that because he can't respond to the topic of white nationalism that he changes the topic to be about "the left". So far so good, I actually agree for the most part. Then she says it's easy then to conclude that you embrace white nationalism, misogyny, paedophilia, and Nazism.
My "extreme" way of interpretation is taken directly from her writing and in context, which I demonstrated by going back and showing point by damn point that there is no rational justification for A to lead to B. Fuck it though, I'm not unreasonable and that's why I asked 3-4 times repeatedly for her to explain her statement. She refused to do so again and again.

You are welcome to explain how one goes from "you don't have ideas and just want to change the subject" to "it's easy to conclude you value paedophilia". By all means, have at thee cause I really wanna know, so far no one has made anything close to an explanation for it and even epronovost, who I was responding to, thinks she was being offensive and unethical, though not illogical.

(19-10-2017 12:16 PM)Stefan Mayerschoff Wrote:  Actually, about the only thing I could say she might be guilty of is false dichotomy; that is, either BikerDude has a paucity of ideas or his views align with those mentioned.
Except she didn't say that at all, you are mistaken. She said he had no ideas and was trying to change the topic to the left intentionally and concluded from that that he values child rape and Nazism. You could make the argument that it's a giant non-sequitur, but I really don't care about that as that's not what stoked my ire.

(19-10-2017 12:16 PM)Stefan Mayerschoff Wrote:  Of course, she then gave him (and herself) an out by saying "if neither of those are true, try writing with more clarity"
So what? That's not how reasonable conversation happens. If I joined a conversation and decided "hey I don't like how off topic I personally feel this person is" and accused a person of valuing child rape but then "left an out" and said "but if your not you should get back on topic" would you defend me as rational or moral? I sure as shit wouldn't defend that which is why I am here admonishing that and being attacked by people like you that seem to be OK with it.

(19-10-2017 12:16 PM)Stefan Mayerschoff Wrote:  Consider yourself "rapped on the knuckles" for being an ass clown for no good reason
Haha, oh man. OK two things..... firstly you are "rapping the knuckles" of the person who took umbrage at being lied to and seeing someone use an unsupported accusation of child rape as a debate tool and not the person doing the lying and making the accusation. That tells me all I need to know about your qualifications to give me a moral rebuke. Seriously you are trying to admonish the person lied to not the person doing the lying. I ain't trying to shit on you mate but it's seriously bewildering to watch.

Secondly and more importantly being lied to, being accused of things I wasn't doing, having my criticism completely ignored and admittedly intentionally ignored, being blamed for her refusal to give an explanation despite asking for it multiple times, then having those lies and dishonest responses repeated (and defended, good job you) after I have made MULTIPLE demonstrations of those lies is MORE than enough reason to be aggressive. It's the opposite of no good reason it's literally half a dozen good reasons.

Sorry, dude. TL;DR

Probably wasn't worth the electrons used to display it anyway. But I'm glad my post provided you yet another opportunity to pontificate from upon your high horse, even if it probably had nothing to do with what I posted earlier. I was just throwing my 2 cents in. Carry on.
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19-10-2017, 02:22 PM
RE: How White Nationalism Was Reinvigorated
(19-10-2017 01:56 PM)BikerDude Wrote:  
(19-10-2017 01:49 PM)epronovost Wrote:  When did I said they were duped? I said they were convinced (or saw their views reinforced) by propagandist, not duped. There's a difference between the two.

Oh ok so anything that is not your view is propaganda?

That's not at all what he said, man. You're bad at this.

Besides, just because something is "propaganda", doesn't mean it's incorrect or even wrong. It's just that people often take propaganda at face value. And that's true of everyone- left, right, and center.
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19-10-2017, 02:39 PM
How White Nationalism Was Reinvigorated
@Emma

Oxford dictionaries defines propaganda as "Information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view".

There may be other definitions but to me propaganda has definitive negative cobotations; it's nothing more than bullshit spread by whoever has stake in misinforming others.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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19-10-2017, 02:48 PM
RE: How White Nationalism Was Reinvigorated
(19-10-2017 01:52 PM)Rachel Wrote:  I know the difference between criticism and a personal attack.
No, you don't which is why you accused me of attacking you with my opening post, which wasn't. I started attacking you when you started lying to me and dodging my question.

(19-10-2017 01:52 PM)Rachel Wrote:  I have written as clearly and concisely as I can. I apologize for not taking into account your problems with basic reading comprehension.
Oh good more dishonesty, it's hard for me to understand and comprehend your explanation when you don't fucking write one.

(19-10-2017 01:52 PM)Rachel Wrote:  You have ascribed to me opinions I don’t hold and motives I don’t have.
Hypocritical ass. I've explained and demonstrated my position, you haven't and have in fact actively avoided doing so despite repeated requests, the only thing you have brought to bear is assertions. That's not a card you get to play.

(19-10-2017 01:52 PM)Rachel Wrote:  Your entire attack against me (as I said) is based on your interpretation of my words, thus it’s a straw man.
It's not an "interpretation" I have gone through your posts, repeatedly, and demonstrated your giant immoral leap in logic and have, repeatedly, asked you to clarify your meaning and you have, repeatedly, claimed to have an explanation but have, repeatedly, flat out refused to offer one.

How the fuck do you get from "you want to change the subject because you have no ideas" to " it's easy then to conclude you hold values including child rape and Nazism". That makes about a half a dozen times I've asked, so if I am wrong the only reason I am still wrong is that you refuse to offer a correction.

Also, are you planning on just ignoring the fact you claimed that Biker tried to make it about you (which at one point was part of your justification) when in reality it was you that made it about him and started the first round of personal attacks?


(19-10-2017 01:52 PM)Rachel Wrote:  This will be my last reply to you unless you would like to discuss the rise of white nationalism in America.
Depends, you gonna accuse me of having pedophilic values if I try and expand on the topic?Drinking Beverage

That barb aside I'm happy to discuss the subject, and have on this forum in the past, so whatch ya wanna know?

It is held that valour is the chiefest virtue and most dignifies the haver.
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19-10-2017, 02:48 PM
RE: How White Nationalism Was Reinvigorated
(19-10-2017 02:39 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  @Emma

Oxford dictionaries defines propaganda as "Information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view".

There may be other definitions but to me propaganda has definitive negative cobotations; it's nothing more than bullshit spread by whoever has stake in misinforming others.

Ah, you're right- I stand corrected. I had thought it was necessarily meant to mislead- more just information put out without support (could be true, but might not be) for political purposes. So yeah- negative connotations, certainly not positive, but not necessarily incorrect or wrong. But, yeah, that intent to mislead part is clearly bad. Thanks!
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19-10-2017, 02:53 PM
RE: How White Nationalism Was Reinvigorated
(19-10-2017 02:48 PM)Emma Wrote:  
(19-10-2017 02:39 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  @Emma

Oxford dictionaries defines propaganda as "Information, especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of view".

There may be other definitions but to me propaganda has definitive negative cobotations; it's nothing more than bullshit spread by whoever has stake in misinforming others.

Ah, you're right- I stand corrected. I had thought it was necessarily meant to mislead- more just information put out without support (could be true, but might not be) for political purposes.

No need for "standing corrected. It's one definition among many.

To me however word "propaganda" implies dishonesty.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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19-10-2017, 03:15 PM
RE: How White Nationalism Was Reinvigorated
(19-10-2017 02:11 PM)Stefan Mayerschoff Wrote:  Sorry, dude. TL;DR

Probably wasn't worth the electrons used to display it anyway.

See THIS right here is exactly why I can "pontificate" to you and why you don't have what it takes to try and take me to task. Because when you try to "rap my knuckles" I respond by reiterating my argument, offering an explanation why I hold my position and why I think the opposite is not a tenable position. I offered you the chance to demonstrate a couple of your accusations (and a few of hers), and I corrected your mislabeling of her statement as a false dichotomy, all while being a snarky asshole in response to your snarkiness.
And when I "rap you on the knuckles" back what do you do? None of that "support my position" shit, naw that's too hard so you just act like a belligerent cunt and ignore every counter argument you get.

(19-10-2017 02:11 PM)Stefan Mayerschoff Wrote:  I was just throwing my 2 cents in. Carry on.
Hahah your 2 cents. Seriously? You're just some innocent bystander eh? Your 2 cents involved joining a conversation in progress and starting out by calling me an asshole and an assclown (what she ACTUALLY falsely accused me of doing, right before you rolled up) and never backing any of your shit up beyond accusation and assertion. You're more than welcome to hold any opinion of me you want hell down rep the fuck out of me if ya like, but if you're going to express it on the forum and then tuck your dick up your ass and run away when it's challenged you are not someone whose opinion I have to take seriously at all. If you think you can call me out and not get challenged your naive and if you think you can respond to that by saying "lol TL;DR" like it makes you seem clever your fuckin' clown shoes boy.

My moral compass leads me to object to people using pedophilia accusations as a debate tactic and lying about the person they are accusing, yours leads you to defend a person who does that. That's why I have room to rap you on the knuckles and not the other way around.

Here's the TL;DR for ya: yes I'm an asshole, news at 11, but so are you the difference is while I'M being an asshole I'm explaining my position and offering up arguments and you're just being an asshole. If you disagree feel free to compare my first post to her with your first post to me. See which one of us joined the conversation throwing punches.

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19-10-2017, 03:25 PM
RE: How White Nationalism Was Reinvigorated
(19-10-2017 01:56 PM)BikerDude Wrote:  Oh ok so anything that is not your view is propaganda?

Neither. Why would you think that?

Everything that isn't aligned to my ideology is aligned to another ideology (obviously). Yes, I do believe that cosmopolitanism is a much better ideology than nationalism. Yes, I do believe that interculturalism is a much better ideology than racism. Yes, I do believe that feminism is much better ideology than sexism. Don't you?

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19-10-2017, 03:35 PM
RE: How White Nationalism Was Reinvigorated
(19-10-2017 02:53 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  To me however word "propaganda" implies dishonesty.

Maybe its because the definition of propaganda in french is broader, but propaganda isn't as much dishonest as it is manipulative. The difference may seem pendantic, but to me its still an important distinction. Propaganda, at least the best one, isn't false or deceptive at face value. Its in the framing and contextualisation of the information that it reveal its strength and capacity to modulate beliefs and even, behaviors. It uses rethorical effects, facts and image to push people to draw an inevitable conclusion from it.

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19-10-2017, 03:38 PM
RE: How White Nationalism Was Reinvigorated
(19-10-2017 03:15 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(19-10-2017 02:11 PM)Stefan Mayerschoff Wrote:  Sorry, dude. TL;DR

Probably wasn't worth the electrons used to display it anyway.

See THIS right here is exactly why I can "pontificate" to you and why you don't have what it takes to try and take me to task. Because when you try to "rap my knuckles" I respond by reiterating my argument, offering an explanation why I hold my position and why I think the opposite is not a tenable position. I offered you the chance to demonstrate a couple of your accusations (and a few of hers), and I corrected your mislabeling of her statement as a false dichotomy, all while being a snarky asshole in response to your snarkiness.
And when I "rap you on the knuckles" back what do you do? None of that "support my position" shit, naw that's too hard so you just act like a belligerent cunt and ignore every counter argument you get.

(19-10-2017 02:11 PM)Stefan Mayerschoff Wrote:  I was just throwing my 2 cents in. Carry on.
Hahah your 2 cents. Seriously? You're just some innocent bystander eh? Your 2 cents involved joining a conversation in progress and starting out by calling me an asshole and an assclown (what she ACTUALLY falsely accused me of doing, right before you rolled up) and never backing any of your shit up beyond accusation and assertion. You're more than welcome to hold any opinion of me you want hell down rep the fuck out of me if ya like, but if you're going to express it on the forum and then tuck your dick up your ass and run away when it's challenged you are not someone whose opinion I have to take seriously at all. If you think you can call me out and not get challenged your naive and if you think you can respond to that by saying "lol TL;DR" like it makes you seem clever your fuckin' clown shoes boy.

My moral compass leads me to object to people using pedophilia accusations as a debate tactic and lying about the person they are accusing, yours leads you to defend a person who does that. That's why I have room to rap you on the knuckles and not the other way around.

Here's the TL;DR for ya: yes I'm an asshole, news at 11, but so are you the difference is while I'M being an asshole I'm explaining my position and offering up arguments and you're just being an asshole. If you disagree feel free to compare my first post to her with your first post to me. See which one of us joined the conversation throwing punches.

Sorry, still not reading. If you can't make your point succinctly, I really don't have time. Just because your posts resemble someone flailing about a room during a grand mal seizure doesn't mean you can call those movements ballet with a straight face.

You misinterpreted Rachel's point, and went down a rabbit hole of your own making. Everything else after that is just sound and fury signifying nothing.
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