How White Nationalism Was Reinvigorated
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18-10-2017, 08:33 AM
RE: How White Nationalism Was Reinvigorated
(18-10-2017 07:54 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  It seems to me that this organizing of people into neat groups is doomed to failure.
I think many of these guys are assholes but white supremacists?
No.
And showing that they cynically pandered to the worst elements is unsurprising.
The online sites that do call themselves white supremacist have been pretty outspoken against Breitbart.
Granted it's a cat fight between the Klan and The John Birch society at best. Two collections of assholes, but if we are going to engage in name calling I'd just stick with asshole.
https://www.salon.com/2016/09/29/alt-rig...rt-jewish/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxL_bf7wetE

Like you said, it's not a neat group. From early in the article:

Quote:“Finally doing my big feature on the alt right,” Yiannopoulos wrote in a March 9, 2016, email to Andrew “Weev” Auernheimer, a hacker who is the system administrator of the neo-Nazi hub the Daily Stormer, and who would later ask his followers to disrupt the funeral of Charlottesville victim Heather Heyer. “Fancy braindumping some thoughts for me.”

They deliberately reached out to these people, who are/were major players in the alt-right "movement". It's included aspects of white supremacy from the start.

I think it's too much to dismiss or downplay how willing they are to not just cynically pander, but also to prop up the ideals that come with white supremacy. Milo has been present front and center at neo-Nazi events. To dismiss it simply as pandering is to downplay the danger. Milo may "disavow" white supremacy on one hand, and throw a Nazi salute with the other- even if he's doing the salute cynically, he's doing it with them. He's not mocking them. He's promoting them. And Bannon has been directing it. And Breitbart is the friendlier face with "plausible" deniability about its promotion of white nationalism to the larger part of the nation, as opposed to the out and out racist Daily Stormer.

Cat-fights between the two only lend them "credible" distance, despite players from both outlets that are working together to promote agendas that are congruent in many ways. One of them happens to promote genocide, and the other is kinda okay with that... at least okay enough with it to accept their help and help them in return. That's fucked up, and way beyond asshole-ish. A person can be an asshole and still be technically correct in their ideas. Genocidal ideas are blatantly abhorrent.
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18-10-2017, 09:32 AM
RE: How White Nationalism Was Reinvigorated
I'm not up on the latest details but are these white nationalists really calling for genocide? The few things I read about it seemed like they just wanted to get enough people together to round up all the non-whites and send them packing. An army of 10-20 million gun toting whites that say "leave now or we'll force you out at gun point." I mean I guess that would be genocide if they started shooting the ones that didn't leave. But I doubt that it would work. They'd need to get at least 50 million on their side with guns to make it work.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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18-10-2017, 10:22 AM
RE: How White Nationalism Was Reinvigorated
(18-10-2017 09:32 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  I'm not up on the latest details but are these white nationalists really calling for genocide? The few things I read about it seemed like they just wanted to get enough people together to round up all the non-whites and send them packing. An army of 10-20 million gun toting whites that say "leave now or we'll force you out at gun point." I mean I guess that would be genocide if they started shooting the ones that didn't leave. But I doubt that it would work. They'd need to get at least 50 million on their side with guns to make it work.

Do you not understand how their messages of hate have a real-world impact on how people treat minorities?

Yes, some groups do call for genocide. Some groups do simply want to remove minorities from the country. Regardless of the practicality and logistics of an actual genocide (or mass deportation), the increasing normalization of these hateful messages creates an increasingly dangerous environment for minorities.

I'm not afraid that Trump is suddenly going to call for the genocide of minority Americans (though he's already called for mass deportations). But what does concern me is that America doesn't regress in its already rather poor treatment of minority groups. That regression has already started under Trump, but it's extremely important that we don't allow that to be a long-term course change for American civil rights.
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18-10-2017, 10:39 AM
RE: How White Nationalism Was Reinvigorated
(18-10-2017 09:32 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  I'm not up on the latest details but are these white nationalists really calling for genocide? The few things I read about it seemed like they just wanted to get enough people together to round up all the non-whites and send them packing. An army of 10-20 million gun toting whites that say "leave now or we'll force you out at gun point." I mean I guess that would be genocide if they started shooting the ones that didn't leave. But I doubt that it would work. They'd need to get at least 50 million on their side with guns to make it work.

Your scenario number one wouldn't be genocide, but a form of ''ethnic cleansing'' or at least forced displacement. The important thing to remember thow is that genocide, ethnic cleansing and forced displacement are war crimes and crimes against humanity. We can safely lump all of these people in the category of ''the worst human being possible''.

As for Milo, he is what we call a ''foil''. That's a person who is paid or otherwise rewarded to say racist, homophobic and sexist things, but who is personaly safer from accusation of racism, sexism and homophobia due to his race, sex and sexual orientation. The ''foil'' is one of the most universal tactic to pass hatred and make it seem less threatening. Nazis had their Jew hating Jews to help enforced their rule. Some of those Jews did it in the hope of saving their own skin, acting as collaborator in the hope of being spared or gaining some time. Others, swallowed the Nazi propaganda either out of self hatred or by building themselves as the exception; perceiving themselves as the black/homosexual/women who isn't like ''all of them''. History is full of ''foils''.

Ironically, its the racists/homophobes/sexists who are the most easily convinced by the ''foil'' game. After all, who else but a strongly prejudiced person would fall for such a lame trick than to think that only men can be misogynistic or that only non black people can hate black people or at least make the pretence of it? It has the neat bonus of giving an illusion of legitimity to their own prejudices and making them seem more rational instead of enthralled by hysterical fear of nonconformism and xenophobia.

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18-10-2017, 10:44 AM
RE: How White Nationalism Was Reinvigorated
(18-10-2017 10:22 AM)Emma Wrote:  
(18-10-2017 09:32 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  I'm not up on the latest details but are these white nationalists really calling for genocide? The few things I read about it seemed like they just wanted to get enough people together to round up all the non-whites and send them packing. An army of 10-20 million gun toting whites that say "leave now or we'll force you out at gun point." I mean I guess that would be genocide if they started shooting the ones that didn't leave. But I doubt that it would work. They'd need to get at least 50 million on their side with guns to make it work.

Do you not understand how their messages of hate have a real-world impact on how people treat minorities?

Yes, some groups do call for genocide. Some groups do simply want to remove minorities from the country. Regardless of the practicality and logistics of an actual genocide (or mass deportation), the increasing normalization of these hateful messages creates an increasingly dangerous environment for minorities.

I'm not afraid that Trump is suddenly going to call for the genocide of minority Americans (though he's already called for mass deportations). But what does concern me is that America doesn't regress in its already rather poor treatment of minority groups. That regression has already started under Trump, but it's extremely important that we don't allow that to be a long-term course change for American civil rights.

I just don't see it happening. There's probably like 10,000 or less of these jackasses. Minorities are part of who we are. They are our neighbors. Our military veterans. Our sports heroes. Personally I couldn't imagine a country without minorities. I mean I'm all for certain groups to clean up their act, but that goes for meth head white trash too. When it comes down to it, there's far more people that are not white nationalists than are. Their movement doesn't stand a chance.

"Evil will always triumph over good, because good is dumb." - Lord Dark Helmet
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18-10-2017, 10:57 AM
RE: How White Nationalism Was Reinvigorated
(18-10-2017 10:39 AM)epronovost Wrote:  
(18-10-2017 09:32 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  I'm not up on the latest details but are these white nationalists really calling for genocide? The few things I read about it seemed like they just wanted to get enough people together to round up all the non-whites and send them packing. An army of 10-20 million gun toting whites that say "leave now or we'll force you out at gun point." I mean I guess that would be genocide if they started shooting the ones that didn't leave. But I doubt that it would work. They'd need to get at least 50 million on their side with guns to make it work.

Your scenario number one wouldn't be genocide, but a form of ''ethnic cleansing'' or at least forced displacement. The important thing to remember thow is that genocide, ethnic cleansing and forced displacement are war crimes and crimes against humanity. We can safely lump all of these people in the category of ''the worst human being possible''.

As for Milo, he is what we call a ''foil''. That's a person who is paid or otherwise rewarded to say racist, homophobic and sexist things, but who is personaly safer from accusation of racism, sexism and homophobia due to his race, sex and sexual orientation. The ''foil'' is one of the most universal tactic to pass hatred and make it seem less threatening. Nazis had their Jew hating Jews to help enforced their rule. Some of those Jews did it in the hope of saving their own skin, acting as collaborator in the hope of being spared or gaining some time. Others, swallowed the Nazi propaganda either out of self hatred or by building themselves as the exception; perceiving themselves as the black/homosexual/women who isn't like ''all of them''. History is full of ''foils''.

Ironically, its the racists/homophobes/sexists who are the most easily convinced by the ''foil'' game. After all, who else but a strongly prejudiced person would fall for such a lame trick than to think that only men can be misogynistic or that only non black people can hate black people or at least make the pretence of it? It has the neat bonus of giving an illusion of legitimity to their own prejudices and making them seem more rational instead of enthralled by hysterical fear of nonconformism and xenophobia.

Hmm, I learned something new. I didn't know that there was a term to explain this. Thanks!
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18-10-2017, 11:08 AM
RE: How White Nationalism Was Reinvigorated
(18-10-2017 10:44 AM)Lord Dark Helmet Wrote:  
(18-10-2017 10:22 AM)Emma Wrote:  Do you not understand how their messages of hate have a real-world impact on how people treat minorities?

Yes, some groups do call for genocide. Some groups do simply want to remove minorities from the country. Regardless of the practicality and logistics of an actual genocide (or mass deportation), the increasing normalization of these hateful messages creates an increasingly dangerous environment for minorities.

I'm not afraid that Trump is suddenly going to call for the genocide of minority Americans (though he's already called for mass deportations). But what does concern me is that America doesn't regress in its already rather poor treatment of minority groups. That regression has already started under Trump, but it's extremely important that we don't allow that to be a long-term course change for American civil rights.

I just don't see it happening. There's probably like 10,000 or less of these jackasses. Minorities are part of who we are. They are our neighbors. Our military veterans. Our sports heroes. Personally I couldn't imagine a country without minorities. I mean I'm all for certain groups to clean up their act, but that goes for meth head white trash too. When it comes down to it, there's far more people that are not white nationalists than are. Their movement doesn't stand a chance.

I think you're still not getting it. People don't have to take up the flag of white nationalism to be sympathetic, even if only partially, to their message. When parts of their message is spread by Breitbart and other outlets like Fox News, that fuels violence and discrimination against minority groups.

The genocide part might not be spread, but the arguments used against minority groups are spread, echoed, and normalized- laundered, if you will- by more polished and accepted media outlets. This is what creates the dangerous environment for minority groups.

This is happening right now. But, if you don't see it happening, I'm not surprised. You're pretty well-known around here for having your head pretty far up Trump's ass, so I'd image it must be hard to see the world around you with that perspective. Drinking Beverage

/sorry not sorry for that last part Tongue
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18-10-2017, 11:34 AM (This post was last modified: 18-10-2017 11:43 AM by BikerDude.)
RE: How White Nationalism Was Reinvigorated
I think the left has alienated enough people by painting with a very broad brush.
Personally I look forward to the day when I can read something from the left that seems to actually support something.
Anything.
Or suggest solutions rather than just point fingers at all the bad guys.
I'm about as worried about white supremacists taking over as I am ISIS bringing sharia law.
I hate when people talk about things "spreading".
It is so condescending. Like people need to be protected from ideas by those who are so much smarter and a better judge then the average unwashed masses.
The answer to unsavory ideas is free speech.
Better ideas.
People can be the judge for themselves.
It's called democracy and free speech.
But it looks like the left will just take the bait and chase the same old tail around and around.
Once again fighting from the heels as usual.

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18-10-2017, 12:43 PM
RE: How White Nationalism Was Reinvigorated
(18-10-2017 11:34 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  I think the left has alienated enough people by painting with a very broad brush.
Personally I look forward to the day when I can read something from the left that seems to actually support something.
Anything.
Or suggest solutions rather than just point fingers at all the bad guys.
I'm about as worried about white supremacists taking over as I am ISIS bringing sharia law.
I hate when people talk about things "spreading".
It is so condescending. Like people need to be protected from ideas by those who are so much smarter and a better judge then the average unwashed masses.
The answer to unsavory ideas is free speech.
Better ideas.
People can be the judge for themselves.
It's called democracy and free speech.
But it looks like the left will just take the bait and chase the same old tail around and around.
Once again fighting from the heels as usual.

Jesus... talk about condescending... and painting with a broad brush... Facepalm

If you don't know whether the left supports anything, and what it is, then I'm not sure I want to bother even trying to explain anything to you. Drinking Beverage
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18-10-2017, 01:00 PM
RE: How White Nationalism Was Reinvigorated
(18-10-2017 11:34 AM)BikerDude Wrote:  I think the left has alienated enough people by painting with a very broad brush.

Keep in mind that I speak about polish left:

I think that left could alienated some (many?) people by saying truth - no pro-death authoritarian clown wanting to make women living incubator likes to be called such. Mostly however left let down people by inaction and betrayal of workers and minorities, by playing kissy faces with church and by losing revolutionary edge in rhetoric.

Quote: Personally I look forward to the day when I can read something from the left that seems to actually support something.
Anything.
Or suggest solutions rather than just point fingers at all the bad guys.


Try politicalcritique.org

Also marxism was best when used to critique capitalism (at least such was Bauman take). Perhaps left is best when it criticize right and strive to keep people honest by playing naysmith?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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