How/Why did Islam get founded?
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05-04-2012, 09:05 PM
RE: How/Why did Islam get founded?
I've read arguments by "Muhammad mythicists," similar to Jesus mythicists, but I find Muhammad's historicity plausible.

For example:

He had marital problems.

Not all of the battles he led turned out as well as he wanted. He even got some teeth knocked out in one hand-to-hand encounter.

His men kept bringing to him their disputes about loot, female captives, divided loyalties and honor issues, and they didn't like some of the judgments he made.

He survived an attempt to poison him, but the poison damaged his health and probably hastened the time of his death.

These and other aspects of his life have the ring of truth about them. Muhammad sounds like a real guy, much more so than the Jesus of the gospels.
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05-04-2012, 09:09 PM
RE: How/Why did Islam get founded?
(05-04-2012 05:59 PM)Crusher Wrote:  On another forum someone said Mohammed asked the jews to help him spread his new religion but they turned him down which explains the antisemitism. Can this be confirmed?

"One day the Arch Angel Gabriel spoke to him. Gabriel told Mohammed to go to Jerusalem."
I assume that didn't actually happen (just a thought). Can it be explained why he suddenly started talking about an angel he met in a cave? Did he just hallucinate, did he just made it up for some reason or are the historical texts quite vague about that moment assuming we can actually trust them.
They believe that he started to see other religions, like Monophysites( heretics of Christianity that believed Christ was all divine) and the Jews who had taken up residence there after the Diaspora. So he decided to found his own religion, I guess.

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06-04-2012, 07:25 AM
RE: How/Why did Islam get founded?
Mohammed was told to write Allah ... 23 years later = Full Quran.

One thing I don't understand is why people use mohammed's illiteracy as a strong point in support of the Quran lol

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06-04-2012, 01:23 PM
RE: How/Why did Islam get founded?
Islam was founded as a political expediency for the new ruler of Medina and Mecca. Like the Late Romans (and others before) Mo and the boys knew that absent a state religion, a divergences of beliefs would be a danger to the state. Christianity had its leadership outside of Middle East and the Jews were "insular" in their faith so he couldn't use them as a ready made answer. All the other animistic religions did not have a hierarchy world view so nothing to prop up his young regime.
So Mo decided, "I am God's Prophet" (one step down from the grandious claim of I am God/God's Son). Borrow a little from Judiaism, and a little from Christianity, and tad from the naturalistic faiths and bingo/bango a new religion with a living prophet to boot. That should keep them in line, I'll tell ya. Now, his gang of thugs... I mean conquering heroes become "holy warriors" who spread the word of God, as told to them by... ahem... his Prophet via the sword. It's a big hit. Unfortunately, Mo didn't live long enough to enjoy the fruits of his station. Nevertheless, his family and followers maintained the "faith" and used it to grow their dominion. Two Years Later "God's Book" begins to be "compiled" but this takes another 24 years! (Evidently some pages must have turned up tucked into a sofa, behind a cabinet, and under a plant pot I guess) Meanwhile the Family and friends were living high off the hog. Until one day when the family had a falling out, someone lost their head, literally, and the Prophet's family lost its place, but the faith still serve.
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06-04-2012, 09:58 PM
RE: How/Why did Islam get founded?
(05-04-2012 09:05 PM)advancedatheist Wrote:  I've read arguments by "Muhammad mythicists," similar to Jesus mythicists, but I find Muhammad's historicity plausible.

For example:

He had marital problems.

Not all of the battles he led turned out as well as he wanted. He even got some teeth knocked out in one hand-to-hand encounter.

His men kept bringing to him their disputes about loot, female captives, divided loyalties and honor issues, and they didn't like some of the judgments he made.

He survived an attempt to poison him, but the poison damaged his health and probably hastened the time of his death.

These and other aspects of his life have the ring of truth about them. Muhammad sounds like a real guy, much more so than the Jesus of the gospels.
A few years ago I spent a couple of months getting my head around who this Muhammad was, and I agree, his history is a lot more realistic than that of Jesus.

Like many great historical characters (for e.g. Saint Paul, Hitler, Winston Churchill), I suspect he was mentally unwell. He may have been an epileptic, and I suspect he suffered from a psychotic illness too. He wasn't a full blown schizophrenic, as he was too functional for that.
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07-04-2012, 07:53 PM
RE: How/Why did Islam get founded?
(05-04-2012 05:59 PM)Crusher Wrote:  On another forum someone said Mohammed asked the jews to help him spread his new religion but they turned him down which explains the antisemitism. Can this be confirmed?
No, the anti-Semitism was already present in the religions in the region (Christianity, Manichaeism, Mandaeism), all of which were basically Judaic heresies. They cleverly hid the fact that they were stealing the Jewish scriptures by demonizing the Jews.
So Mohammad and the boys merely followed a successful formula.
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08-04-2012, 12:17 AM (This post was last modified: 08-04-2012 12:21 AM by Peterkin.)
RE: How/Why did Islam get founded?
(07-04-2012 07:53 PM)Blood Wrote:  
(05-04-2012 05:59 PM)Crusher Wrote:  On another forum someone said Mohammed asked the jews to help him spread his new religion but they turned him down which explains the antisemitism. Can this be confirmed?
No, the anti-Semitism was already present in the religions in the region (Christianity, Manichaeism, Mandaeism), all of which were basically Judaic heresies. They cleverly hid the fact that they were stealing the Jewish scriptures by demonizing the Jews.
So Mohammad and the boys merely followed a successful formula.
I think the political and historical truth is a little more complex. 'Antisemitism' as an institutionalized policy wasn't invented until much - a thousand, maybe 1500, years - later, and for quite different reasons. Local rivalries and enmities had existed for some time before Muhammad, and the Hebrews themselves were no slouches at hating or smiting when they had the chance.

Nobody stole the Jewish scriptures. The mythology and folklore has roots common to Jews and Arabs; both had access and no copyright. The Christians (c. 300 AD) dipped into that pool, but they had a right, too, given centuries of Greek and Roman occupation and contribution.

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25-03-2016, 12:51 PM
RE: How/Why did Islam get founded?
(05-04-2012 05:59 PM)Crusher Wrote:  On another forum someone said Mohammed asked the jews to help him spread his new religion but they turned him down which explains the antisemitism. Can this be confirmed?

"One day the Arch Angel Gabriel spoke to him. Gabriel told Mohammed to go to Jerusalem."
I assume that didn't actually happen (just a thought). Can it be explained why he suddenly started talking about an angel he met in a cave? Did he just hallucinate, did he just made it up for some reason or are the historical texts quite vague about that moment assuming we can actually trust them.

As a Muslim by affiliation, i think what's in this page should help, it's pretty correct.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad%2...ws_on_Jews
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25-03-2016, 01:07 PM
RE: How/Why did Islam get founded?
As Salman Rushdie's "The Satanic Verses" suggests, (and the reason Muslims get SO upset with it), is that Islam developed directly from the Arabic Moon-god cult. Evidence of that is everywhere. No one has ever really refuted Robert Spencer's contentions that Muhammad was an invention. In any case, the religion itself was used, just like Judaism and Christianity and Alexander's Greek religion, as a tool, to unify the large, spreading empire. It's was a time-tested device. The evidence for the development from the Moon-god cult, (the religion of the god Sin), is ubiquitous.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...#pid169445

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25-03-2016, 02:45 PM
RE: How/Why did Islam get founded?
My brief knowledge. Islam was founded around the 7th Centerny ruffly 300 to 400 years after Roman declared Christianity to be the new "it" religion. Jewidism had already been around 1000 years at that point.

Much of the Koran requires you to have previous knowledge of the OT and parts of the NT in order to grasp many of it's stories. So it's not a surprise that Islam would be to far off from these established religions.

I do know that we have more information regarding Mohammad exsitance then we do Jesus's. I'm not saying a flying horse and spiting in peoples eyes to make them feel better is more believable. I'm just saying if a debate was raised weather Mohammad was a real guy or not we have more evidence to say he did.

But yeah. I'm sure he found a group of people that thought he was a cool dude, and followed him unquestioningly. Aparently it super easy to do. Just look at this years presidential elections and how many people are falling in line with Drumpf. Even thou he's not personal involving himself in the fighting he's not condemning it ether.

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