How a society survives with immorality
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17-09-2012, 08:19 PM
How a society survives with immorality
I'm going to mainly talk about islamic societies in which immoral behavior such as murder (honor killings), rape, child marriage, child molestation, genital mutilation and a host of other immoral acts that reduce well being, the health and happiness of many members of the society. Unfortunately those members of the society are treated like cattle.

When we talk about where our morals come from, how societies flourish when we all agree that murder, rape, molestation are things that reduce the well being, the health and happiness of all the members in a society, and this knowledge, this agreement of moral foundation is how we were able to survive, to cooperate.

This explains our why we have the morals that we have.

But what if societies survive without those morals.
People learn to accept murder, rape, child marriage & molestation as cultural heritage.
In 33 countries people of the islamic religion killed and caused massive amounts of destruction and damage because they couldn't mentally process the idea of their holy figure portrayed in a movie.
The act of brutally killing a random person was less offensive to them than an actor playing a part in a fictional film.

This needs to change.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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17-09-2012, 08:58 PM
RE: How a society survives with immorality
Many societies faired very well with 50% of the population as slaves and only a handfull of families owning everything.

Brutal intolerant laws that called for death for the simplest things. Killing someone in a fight was lawful if it was a fair fight.

50% mortality rates for children under the age of 5 due mainly to starvation.

People were treated worse than farm animals because they were less valuable.

That's the bulk of human history and we survived.

Islam may still be stuck in that time period.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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17-09-2012, 09:31 PM
RE: How a society survives with immorality
Perhaps I shouldn't lay this all on the islamic religion. There are lots of people of the islamic faith in the US and I didn't hear of any riots or killings here.
It's my guess that this rage, this outrage comes from conditioning. If that is all you have ever known and someone insults it, it becomes a personal insult.

So it's the education of children that must be the cornerstone, if this is ever going to change.
Or we could just nuke each city that had riots. This way it gives them time to rebuild and think about the error of their ways.
I am a vengeful overlord.

They would eventually worship me as a god and then kill people when my image was insulted.
Damn this won't work.

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17-09-2012, 09:38 PM (This post was last modified: 17-09-2012 09:45 PM by depat.)
RE: How a society survives with immorality
I cannot speak for all Islamists, but I have some Muslim aquaintances that I have spent quite alot of time with thrashing over Islamic theology and the running of Islamic societies. They are as appalled as most Americans over murder, rape, pedophelia, honor killings (these Muslim aquaintances of mine live in Islamic countries that do not practice genital mutilation, an apalling custom). As for the cultural acceptance of child brides, many Islamic nations allow this, but there are statutes that the good Muslem is to observe to keep honor with Allah: the child will live untouched until fully grown (paraphrase). I agree that this is so often breached, leading to pedophilia.

As for the U.S: pedophilia is culterally tabu, but it is very common; rape is also tabu, but it is common and all too often disregarded (check out the # of rape kits dating back to over a decade left unexamined throughout the U.S.--it's shameful).

Now, rape in Islam countries is common, but not to the Muslem mind. The good Muslim (for want of a better word) woman can be raped, but in Islam (this is a complex topic) the good woman would never find herself in the position for rape to occur, neither morally nor in the physical place for it to happen (ias is so often believed about American women and shown to be true in American courts of law). A Islamic woman who is not a good Islamic woman cannot be raped. So basically, most women raped in Islamic countries would not report it. In short, the good Muslim can be raped but she never is, because she is good (weird). The questionable Islamic woman also cannot be raped. Note: this is a very difficult topic and most Muslims argue it in a very circular way.

Islam countries are very violent; few would deny this, and wanton murder is rampent. Most Islamic countries are third world and underdeveloped.
The highly developed U.S.A. has more murders committed than any other developed country in the world, a statistic I studied at University.
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18-09-2012, 12:55 AM (This post was last modified: 18-09-2012 01:24 AM by PeterKA.)
RE: How a society survives with immorality
The fundamental minsunderstanding is that you believe these actions to be immoral. This could only be the case if the people involved knew that they were acting against whatever was in the best interests of the people around them.
Abhorent, repugnant and revolting ....to me, yes. But not immoral, as they are acts condoned and accepted within the boundaries of their limited society. And the practitioners genuinely believe they are doing the right thing.

Given the following facts

In the USA, At any given moment in time
0.8% of the population is in Jail
0.7% of the population is drunk
0.4% of the population is having sex
0.3% of the population is in Church

Just how do we judge morality any way?

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18-09-2012, 01:36 AM
RE: How a society survives with immorality
(18-09-2012 12:55 AM)PeterKA Wrote:  The fundamental minsunderstanding is that you believe these actions to be immoral. This could only be the case if the people involved knew that they were acting against whatever was in the best interests of the people around them.
Abhorent, repugnant and revolting ....to me, yes. But not immoral, as they are acts condoned and accepted within the boundaries of their limited society. And the practitioners genuinely believe they are doing the right thing.




So, because a society believes something, that makes it true, ok and moral? Nice standard. "We think it's okay, so it is". How does a society or person grow if they are always right in the first place?

Because a rapist grew up under the pretense that rape is okay, they are moral? Because priests keep raping children under the guise of their religion, it's okay?

I'm not so sure morality is necessarily perspective. Do I think my country is already moral? Nope. We have some improvement to do by far. Maybe my country is more moral, but its not most moral or just moral. Ignorance does not equal moral.
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18-09-2012, 07:18 AM (This post was last modified: 18-09-2012 07:21 AM by PeterKA.)
RE: How a society survives with immorality
(18-09-2012 01:36 AM)LadyJane Wrote:  So, because a society believes something, that makes it true, ok and moral? Nice standard. "We think it's okay, so it is". How does a society or person grow if they are always right in the first place?

Because a rapist grew up under the pretense that rape is okay, they are moral? Because priests keep raping children under the guise of their religion, it's okay?

I'm not so sure morality is necessarily perspective. Do I think my country is already moral? Nope. We have some improvement to do by far. Maybe my country is more moral, but its not most moral or just moral. Ignorance does not equal moral.

I didn't say it was nice, but yes your morality comes from your family and the society you grew up in. If you grew up in a society that appears to condone rape under certain circumstances, and certainly does nothing to punish the perpetrators, you might be excused for thinking it was justifiable. And indeed moral if religion is used to make that justification.
On the other hand, a priest raping little boys knows that what he is doing is wrong in the eyes of his society, and yet he does it anyway. His choices make him much more immoral because he is aware of the fundamental wrongness of his actions.
While I agree that ignorance in no way excuses morality of lack thereof, just remember that they often accuse us of being immoral because we are just as ignorant of their standards.
Would I choose to live in any of these places? Absolutely not. For the most part they are dirt poor, ill educated and deeply religious. I do not expect many of them to grow or prosper in any way until they are able to shake off their bronze age belief systems and begin to admit their mistakes. But wagging your fingers at their core beliefs is not going to help, if recent history has taught us anything all it will do is make them double down and hold these beliefs more tightly

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13-05-2013, 02:31 PM
RE: How a society survives with immorality
(18-09-2012 07:18 AM)PeterKA Wrote:  I didn't say it was nice, but yes your morality comes from your family and the society you grew up in. If you grew up in a society that appears to condone rape under certain circumstances, and certainly does nothing to punish the perpetrators, you might be excused for thinking it was justifiable. And indeed moral if religion is used to make that justification.

I have been thinking about this lately, with things about Muslims raping women being in the news here and there. I see a lot of comments about how Muslim men can't control themselves, as if Muslim men are somehow completely different from other men, and this is nonsense, they are a product of their societies and cultures.

Some of the things in this thread have been interesting to me. For example, the idea that a good and decent Muslim woman can't be raped. Obviously nonsense, but if a culture tells that to people often enough, they will believe it. So if a woman is a foreigner who is not Muslim, or a Muslim woman who is not covered up as much as her peers, they will just think she is a horrible person and get angry, and some might even decide raping her is ok. It's really the only way to explain things like honor killing. In the US we hear about that and are appalled; and yet, some people in countries where it is practiced really do think the family has been shamed and the victim needs punished or killed.

I was watching the documentary 'Whore's Glory" recently, and a Bangladeshi man was interviewed saying "whores are necessary, otherwise all the women in the country would get raped." I paraphrase, but it was something like that, the idea that men aren't to blame if they are 'tempted' by a woman.

But anyway, as for a society surviving with immorality, if there is a consensus among the people that it's ok, then it's ok. At least until the victims are able to stand up against it, or somebody decides it's not ok anymore and takes action. Certainly a lot of places have survived with immorality. But i would agree with Rahn, education is the way to stop it.
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13-05-2013, 03:26 PM
RE: How a society survives with immorality
(13-05-2013 02:31 PM)amyb Wrote:  
(18-09-2012 07:18 AM)PeterKA Wrote:  I didn't say it was nice, but yes your morality comes from your family and the society you grew up in. If you grew up in a society that appears to condone rape under certain circumstances, and certainly does nothing to punish the perpetrators, you might be excused for thinking it was justifiable. And indeed moral if religion is used to make that justification.

I have been thinking about this lately, with things about Muslims raping women being in the news here and there. I see a lot of comments about how Muslim men can't control themselves, as if Muslim men are somehow completely different from other men, and this is nonsense, they are a product of their societies and cultures.

Some of the things in this thread have been interesting to me. For example, the idea that a good and decent Muslim woman can't be raped. Obviously nonsense, but if a culture tells that to people often enough, they will believe it. So if a woman is a foreigner who is not Muslim, or a Muslim woman who is not covered up as much as her peers, they will just think she is a horrible person and get angry, and some might even decide raping her is ok. It's really the only way to explain things like honor killing. In the US we hear about that and are appalled; and yet, some people in countries where it is practiced really do think the family has been shamed and the victim needs punished or killed.

I was watching the documentary 'Whore's Glory" recently, and a Bangladeshi man was interviewed saying "whores are necessary, otherwise all the women in the country would get raped." I paraphrase, but it was something like that, the idea that men aren't to blame if they are 'tempted' by a woman.

But anyway, as for a society surviving with immorality, if there is a consensus among the people that it's ok, then it's ok. At least until the victims are able to stand up against it, or somebody decides it's not ok anymore and takes action. Certainly a lot of places have survived with immorality. But i would agree with Rahn, education is the way to stop it.

When the society and its religion devalue women, and the laws are such that not only can you pretty much be guaranteed to get away with it - even to blame the victim - then that's a recipe for rape.

I'd bet my bottom dollar that there's a whole lot more rape going on in Muslim societies than we're ever going to hear about.

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13-05-2013, 03:43 PM
RE: How a society survives with immorality
Yes, I agree. I read one article where dude basically said he wasn't aware rape was bad, since he wasn't aware that women are considered humans with rights.

I read part of another article about an Australian woman getting raped, and she was put in jail for it because in order to convict a dude of rape wherever, he needs to confess and you need 4 male Muslim witnesses to the crime. I forget where this was supposed to be, but yeah, it is set up for rape to be acceptable, basically, and set up for it to be all the woman's fault. And if you tell men that rape is ok and that women deserve it, then yes, some men are going to be rapists.
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