How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
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14-11-2017, 04:32 PM
RE: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
(14-11-2017 08:11 AM)julep Wrote:  If it's a tribal thing, and to some extent it is, people have to want to be in your tribe. Yes, they have to like the cherries that you picked in constructing your "superior" Jesus, but they also have to be willing to stick around as you bake the pie.

It's not Satan, it's you.

So maybe try to find a more appealing person to deliver your thoughts?

Quite a challenge. I did meet one such as you describe, he would not say shit if he had a mouthful as grandma used to say. We became quite friendly, but could not take the heat that I can.

I also hooked up with two different female that I kind of rescued from male aggression. Each lasted for one O.P. before bailing.

Name another such wonderful and soft spoken man or woman, who can take the heat and I am there for that.

Care to volunteer if you think you are of that ilk and think you can be helpful in taming my delivery?

Regards
DL
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14-11-2017, 04:37 PM
RE: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
(14-11-2017 10:14 AM)dancefortwo Wrote:  The fear of death is so pervasive that if there's a promise of eternal life people will ignore anything that might block the way, even an immoral god.

I think that that card is overplayed, but am sure some theists are there for that.

I do have a friend who returned to his church after many years of being away. I asked him why and he did not say a fear of death. He said he wanted a place to be buried.

Regards
DL
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14-11-2017, 04:56 PM
RE: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
(14-11-2017 11:21 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  @Cause they were indoctrinated. Nothing mysterious in it.

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If indoctrinated into a moral ideology, I would not mind, but that is not the case.

I think that the tribalism and fellowship aspect is overriding the indoctrination.

I think that many atheist recognize that and that that is why atheists are starting to form atheist churches so as to give their kids the appeasement of their fellowship needs.

Regards
DL
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14-11-2017, 05:23 PM
RE: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
You can find fellowship without finding imaginary friends. That's the difference between us and you.
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14-11-2017, 05:52 PM
RE: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
(14-11-2017 04:24 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  "All moral decisions are trade offs, with both good and bad results."

Before I give my argument based on e real world incident against your view, may I ask for you to clarify and expand on this with a real world example just so I understand what you are saying?

Humans are limited. We only have so much time, energy, money, and talent to deal with any moral issues. That means we will always only be able to accomplish some things but not others, regardless of our best intentions. The wherewithal we put into something will necessarily be denied to something else, because the demands on us are always greater than we can possibly respond to adequately.

To give you one concrete example, to help people today may hurt people in the future, due to climate change. Such help will also likely hurt environments and animals in the present, because of population pressures.

Moral issues are always about priorities for exactly these reasons.
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14-11-2017, 05:58 PM
RE: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
(14-11-2017 05:58 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

I find it quite strange that Christian, Muslims and Jews can ignore the immoral ways that their God is shown to have in the Bible, Qur’an and Talmud...

This question presents something of a non sequitur.

You're presupposing that gods (as these supernatural entities are called) actually exist in the real world, and then asking how theists can happily follow their immoral ways. Doesn't make any logical sense.

For answers to your question then, you need to firstly prove that the theists' gods actually exist (which you obviously can't). And which makes your question null and void.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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14-11-2017, 06:50 PM
RE: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
(14-11-2017 07:31 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(14-11-2017 05:58 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

What has God ever done that is immoral? What standard do you use to determine whether an act is moral or immoral?


The Bible repeatedly tells us God has many good attributes. For example, the bible tells us explicitly that God is fair, just, compassionate and merciful, plus other attributes along these lines.

The problem is that the mythological deeds of this God are none of these things.. For example, killing all the first born of Egypt, including innocent children. That is no compassionate or merciful.

Then we have the new testament theology. God decides from the beginning of time who will be elect and saved, and who will not, which does not depend on anything acts of theirs. God the great potter decides arbitrarily who will be vessels of honor and who will be vessels of dishonor. This is nit just, fair, merciful or compassionate.

Romans 11, why did the Jews not believe in Jesus as Messiah? because God hardened their hearts not to, and thus, be saved. Again, not fair, just, compassionate or merciful. One could list numerous other example where the supposed good attributes of God are shown lacking by the supposed actions of this hypothetical God.

In other words, we judge god;s morality by the claimed attributes of God as contrasted by his supposed acts. God is proclaimed to be good, but obviously is not.

I call this the sub-goodness of God argument because in the past God has been represented to me as good and when I point out his not so good acts, I am told God's goodness is a mysterious goodness we cannot understand. That in regards to God, good has a different meaning that when applied to man.

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter
- Thomas Jefferson

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14-11-2017, 07:09 PM
RE: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
I remember reading a few years ago that theologian Alvin Plantinga was going to attend a seminar of fellow theologians where they were going try to figure out what they should think about the claims of God's perfect goodness and the actions of God recorded in the bible, the massacres, genocides and cruel savagery of the biblical God. I wonder how that went down?

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter
- Thomas Jefferson

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14-11-2017, 10:15 PM
RE: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
(14-11-2017 04:56 PM)Greatest I am Wrote:  I think that the tribalism and fellowship aspect is overriding the indoctrination.


You're free to think that.

Quote: I think that many atheist recognize that and that that is why atheists are starting to form atheist churches so as to give their kids the appeasement of their fellowship needs.


Many? Have some proof?

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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15-11-2017, 06:19 PM
RE: How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?
(14-11-2017 05:58 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  How and why can people ignore their God’s immoral ways?

Immoral people create immoral gods. What else can you expect from a bunch of hairless primates, half a chromosome away from chimpanzees?

(14-11-2017 05:58 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  I find it quite strange that Christian, Muslims and Jews can ignore the immoral ways that their God is shown to have in the Bible, Qur’an and Talmud.

Really? The notion of Santa Claus doesn't make children behave better, why should god work with adults?

(14-11-2017 05:58 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  If you have read any of the critical books on God, you will have seen God described with some rather disingenuous terms that, if applied to a man, would see that man executed by any moral government in quick order. The Buddhist saying that if you ever meet God, kill him seems quite fitting. Frankly, I think killing him without making him suffer for a time would be too good for him. If hell were real, that would be a better end for him as mankind would surely need to see that torture to gain real closure for God’s crimes against humanity. This aside.

Blah blah blah. Why waste effort hating a being that is not real?

Disingenuous means insincere and/or hypocritical. It doesn't seem to fit what you're saying with the rest of your sentence.

(14-11-2017 05:58 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  I can appreciate the value for society of local churches, mosques and temples but cannot fathom why lying priests, preachers and imams try to sell their God as a good God, when he is obviously more satanic than Satan. Perhaps scripture speak at least one truth in that the whole world would be deceived by Satan and his lying preachers and imams. Not that I believe in Satan.

If religious leaders are lying about their gods then there is no value for local religious gatherings. Any possible benefit (community bonds, charity works, etc.) can be done by secular organizations.

Hmm. You don't believe in "Satan"?

(14-11-2017 05:58 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  As a Gnostic Christian, my focus has been to try to become a Parfait, a perfected moral man, using the methods Jesus taught.

The absolute best that historians can say regarding jesus is that he probably existed as a person in the time and region that are attributed to him.

Due to the lack of education in the region, the lack of reliable transmission of information, language barriers, etc., we have no way of knowing anything about what jesus actually did or said.

You have words and acts that are attributed to him but nothing else. Many of those words and acts are contradictory and many of them have been proven false.

(14-11-2017 05:58 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  It has been a long climb up Jacob’s ladder and apotheosis put me up one rung and I have tried to climb higher, but seem to have stalled due to my inability to find arguments that are persuasive enough to loosen Satan’s grip on the minds of Christians, Muslims and Jews.

Oh? I thought you didn't believe in satan?

(14-11-2017 05:58 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Their need of fellowship is stronger than their work on their moral sense and they stay in their religions even though they know that their God is immoral and not worthy of their idol worship. This Gnostic Christian truth is not a flattering epithet for God, which is likely what cause their destruction by Inquisition.

yawn.

(14-11-2017 05:58 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  The truth hurts the religious even when given with a loving touch. I am not that good at that but have seen good honest lovers of Christ get verbally abused by theists. They think hate is motivating those who speak against their God even when love is the motivator.

Many people react poorly to having their world view challenged. It's not a flattering trait but one that seems to be ingrained in the human psyche.

(14-11-2017 05:58 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Hate is born of love, and the Gnostic hate of God is justified on moral grounds, and the attempted correction of a believers moral sense and their thinking is done out of love.

So YOUR hate is justified. Lovely. Just freaking lovely.

Oh, and do you have any idea how condescending it sounds when you tell someone that they are immoral and that you are only correcting them because you love them?

(14-11-2017 05:58 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  They forget that that is how Jesus was and how that love driven expression of hate with what he saw around him almost got him killed at the hands of the Jews. So the myth says.

Soooooo, their stories are "myths" but your stories are "gnosis"... How do you tell the difference, I wonder?

(14-11-2017 05:58 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  The fact that I have had many theists resist entering into moral argument of their God indicates that they know that their God is immoral. I can appreciate that once a person accepts the fellowship that his tribal nature seeks, and he can survive without having better morals, he is loath to jeopardize the comfort zone he has created for himself.

more yawns...

(14-11-2017 05:58 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  The problem is that theists are living in self-deception and for one who seeks or has attained Gnosis, a deeper knowing of himself, self-deception is basically not allowed. That is why I have to bother fighting a fight that is almost un-winnable.

Of course all the other believers are deceiving themselves.
Of course YOU have the true faith.
Of course it is impossible for YOU to be wrong.

The irony of this statement is simply staggering.

(14-11-2017 05:58 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  If you have an answer to the question I posed at the onset, please enlighten me as I am quite disappointed to see so many living in self-deception and without Gnosis, and following Gods who are demonstrably more Satan like than God like.

There you go, mentioning satan again.

(14-11-2017 05:58 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  In the terrible days that we will face from environmental degradation that will soon be upon us, a new and moral God will be required and we presently do not have one.

No, what is required is for people to acknowledge that their actions, both as individuals and as part of a community, are destroying the environment. Humanity has to make environmental reform a priority and change our behaviors accordingly.

WE DO NOT NEED A NEW GOD TO TELL US THESE FACTS.

We need rationalism, humanism and environmentalism.
We need compassion, empathy and cooperation.

WE DO NOT NEED GNOSIS TO TELL US THESE FACTS.

(14-11-2017 05:58 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  I recognize that our tribal and fellowship needs are quite strong and a part of our basic instincts.

Yes, we are a social species. It is a trait that is literally part of our genetic make-up.

(14-11-2017 05:58 AM)Greatest I am Wrote:  Do you have any idea as to how we can break Satan’s hold on Christians, Muslims and Jews and change their fellowship and tribal needs to a need for a God with decent moral values?

And again you blather about satan. Now you want to break his hold, yet earlier you claimed to not believe in him. Rather contradictory, I think.

You want suggestions?

Demonstrate your god.
Demonstrate his "decent moral values".

Evidence based thinking should replace "gnosis" and "faith".

If you cannot justify your beliefs with evidence then your beliefs should be discarded.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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