How can God be uncaused?
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23-08-2012, 08:29 PM
RE: How can God be uncaused?
(23-08-2012 06:21 PM)DLJ Wrote:  Bigger question... If Jesus loves us, why doesn't he sleep on the damp patch?

Again, just to remind everyone. This thread is about what you believe is the origin of the God. I gave you my beliefs just to give a context to the question and just a quick background of my beliefs. This is why I haven't responded to those of you who have posted shit that doesn't matter. I came to facepalm. Those that have posted relevant posts, I will continue to grimace and facepalm.

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23-08-2012, 08:45 PM
How can God be uncaused?
(23-08-2012 08:28 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(23-08-2012 06:35 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  I remember being asked this in the 4th or 5th grade walking to school with my buddy. He asked, "If God made everything, who made God?"
This feels like a gotcha question to almost every atheist I've read or listened to, particularly those here. The thing is, to the believer in the Judeo-Christian God, it is as nonsensical a question to them as their answer seems nonsensical to us. In Christian theology, no one made God. No one gave birth to God. There is no beginning nor end to God. God just is. The logical, materialistic mind can't handle this because it doesn't fit the laws of nature. But that just bolsters the True Believer's faith. If God had to conform to the laws of nature, then by definition, it would no longer be God. If God had a beginning, again, it would be nonsensical to the believer. God just is and God just does as he pleases. It's the last issue I had in completing my deconversion. I had long since abandoned Biblical belief. I had long since accepted the Big Bang, age of the universe and evolution. But two questions remained and they caused great discomfort in trying to cut away the last vestiges of my God Delusion. One was how could life develop in it's own and how could the Big Bang happen on its own.

So one puts the scientific scrutiny of the principle of cause and effect on the Big Bang, but not on the God postulation? How interesting.

No, because The Believer was, in the majority of cases, brought up hearing the cute kids stories like animals on arks and talking snakes and Pinocchio and fish, so the automatic premise is God exists. Everything else gets filtered through this foundational belief. Even if The Believer came to faith later in life, they grew up in a society where the overwhelming masses believe in a deity whether they are religious or not.

So when the believer begins to learn and understand science, it's filtered through all the old stories and songs and bible verses and sermons and craft projects and bible games. And for some, they'll reject the science. Others will accept the science but compromise the interpretation of the bible. You don't have to believe Genesis is literal to be a faithful Christian. And then there are others who go one step further and realize there's no reason to hang onto any of these supernatural beliefs once you see that what we used to think gods did is now simply explained by science. And if science can explain things we didn't know in the past, there is a good possibility it will continue to answer every question humanity can come to have. With each question answered, each gap filled, the once almighty grows smaller and smaller.





Or so I've heard.

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23-08-2012, 09:07 PM
RE: How can God be uncaused?
(23-08-2012 08:45 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  So when the believer begins to learn and understand science, it's filtered through all the old stories and songs and bible verses and sermons and craft projects and bible games. And for some, they'll reject the science. Others will accept the science but compromise the interpretation of the bible. You don't have to believe Genesis is literal to be a faithful Christian. And then there are others who go one step further and realize there's no reason to hang onto any of these supernatural beliefs once you see that what we used to think gods did is now simply explained by science. And if science can explain things we didn't know in the past, there is a good possibility it will continue to answer every question humanity can come to have. With each question answered, each gap filled, the once almighty grows smaller and smaller.

Never did I imply that you need to take the Bible literally to have be a faithful Christian. I simply stated that they are blind to their logic fallacy. They maintain an inconsistent skepticism of an "uncaused" universe, readily shoveling in the belief of an uncaused deity.

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23-08-2012, 09:11 PM
RE: How can God be uncaused?
A universe begins to expand. Stars and such form. Life comes to exist. Intelligence arrives. That intelligence creates the concept of a god.
That god concept spreads backwards through time growing ever stronger, until it reaches the singularity and thus begins to truly exist for the first time.
It's existence comes in direct conflict with the singularity (like matter and anti-matter), BANG, the universe begins it's expansion and the god that was is destroyed.

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23-08-2012, 09:19 PM
RE: How can God be uncaused?
(23-08-2012 09:07 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(23-08-2012 08:45 PM)Erxomai Wrote:  So when the believer begins to learn and understand science, it's filtered through all the old stories and songs and bible verses and sermons and craft projects and bible games. And for some, they'll reject the science. Others will accept the science but compromise the interpretation of the bible. You don't have to believe Genesis is literal to be a faithful Christian. And then there are others who go one step further and realize there's no reason to hang onto any of these supernatural beliefs once you see that what we used to think gods did is now simply explained by science. And if science can explain things we didn't know in the past, there is a good possibility it will continue to answer every question humanity can come to have. With each question answered, each gap filled, the once almighty grows smaller and smaller.

Never did I imply that you need to take the Bible literally to have be a faithful Christian. I simply stated that they are blind to their logic fallacy. They maintain an inconsistent skepticism of an "uncaused" universe, readily shoveling in the belief of an uncaused deity.

No, we have theories, not beliefs.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-08-2012, 09:27 PM
RE: How can God be uncaused?
(23-08-2012 09:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-08-2012 09:07 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  Never did I imply that you need to take the Bible literally to have be a faithful Christian. I simply stated that they are blind to their logic fallacy. They maintain an inconsistent skepticism of an "uncaused" universe, readily shoveling in the belief of an uncaused deity.

No, we have theories, not beliefs.

This is a non sequitur.

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23-08-2012, 09:30 PM
RE: How can God be uncaused?
(23-08-2012 09:27 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(23-08-2012 09:19 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, we have theories, not beliefs.

This is a non sequitur.

How so? You say that atheists are not skeptical of scientific theories of the origin (or not) of the universe, while being skeptical of theists' belief in an uncaused cause.

I point out that we don't have unskeptical beliefs, we have theories - we are always skeptical of theories, that's how science works.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-08-2012, 09:32 PM
RE: How can God be uncaused?
(23-08-2012 09:30 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-08-2012 09:27 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  This is a non sequitur.

How so? You say that atheists are not skeptical of scientific theories of the origin (or not) of the universe, while being skeptical of theists' belief in an uncaused cause.

I point out that we don't have unskeptical beliefs, we have theories - we are always skeptical of theories, that's how science works.

First of all, nowhere did I say atheists don't maintain the same scrutiny. Second of all, I pointed out that theists have an inconsistency in their skepticism. Your argument is either a non sequitur or a strawman.

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23-08-2012, 09:44 PM
RE: How can God be uncaused?
(23-08-2012 09:32 PM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(23-08-2012 09:30 PM)Chas Wrote:  How so? You say that atheists are not skeptical of scientific theories of the origin (or not) of the universe, while being skeptical of theists' belief in an uncaused cause.

I point out that we don't have unskeptical beliefs, we have theories - we are always skeptical of theories, that's how science works.

First of all, nowhere did I say atheists don't maintain the same scrutiny. Second of all, I pointed out that theists have an inconsistency in their skepticism. Your argument is either a non sequitur or a strawman.

Neither, I must have misread or misunderstood your post.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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23-08-2012, 10:01 PM
RE: How can God be uncaused?
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