How can God be uncaused?
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23-08-2012, 11:18 PM
RE: How can God be uncaused?
I think I addressed this in the other thread. At some point the causal chain must be broken because otherwise you have an infinite regress. Scientists view the Big Bang as an uncaused event, although it could have been caused by something else that was uncaused and we simply don't have a shred of evidence for it. In the same manner, God could be uncaused. Whatever the origin of time is was an uncaused event. Just because we can't understand or describe how something happens uncaused doesn't mean that nothing is -- logically, something had to be at the beginning.

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24-08-2012, 06:49 AM
RE: How can God be uncaused?
(23-08-2012 11:18 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  I think I addressed this in the other thread. At some point the causal chain must be broken because otherwise you have an infinite regress. Scientists view the Big Bang as an uncaused event, although it could have been caused by something else that was uncaused and we simply don't have a shred of evidence for it. In the same manner, God could be uncaused. Whatever the origin of time is was an uncaused event. Just because we can't understand or describe how something happens uncaused doesn't mean that nothing is -- logically, something had to be at the beginning.

No, just no. Scientists don't know the cause of the Big Bang and don't claim to. But they're working on it. No physicist says it is 'uncaused'.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-08-2012, 09:52 AM
RE: How can God be uncaused?
On earth, when certain materials become unstable and expand very quickly, we typically call that a bomb.
We observe the universe to be in an expansion and it happened very fast from it's beginnings. Thus the Big Bang.

It's my belief that there are other singularities just as we see other stars in our universe. A vastness as of yet undiscovered.
What we have discovered are dents in our universe where perhaps other universal expansions are bumping up against our expansion.

To try and answer the "how can god be uncaused" ? I suppose the same way that unicorns are uncaused ? IDK - seems like a nonsense question
I thought we already knew that god was a mental construct created by humans as a way to calm their fears over things that go bump in the night.

I mean, what do you imagine god to be in any real sense. A large collection of zeta wave particles that expand throughout all space and time relaying information about every other particle and force in the universe back to a central mass of intelligence and then after reviewing all that information, this god like being decides to pick out a grain of sand that is our galaxy and within that grain of sand, picks out an atom, our solar system and then within that atom, picks out a quark, our planet and then living on that quark, he spies on every living creature impregnating a young 12 yr old girl in the middle east as his way of saying "Hi, how are you ? I exist" and you find all of this plausible ?

Seriously ?

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24-08-2012, 10:04 AM
RE: How can God be uncaused?
(24-08-2012 09:52 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  I mean, what do you imagine god to be in any real sense. A large collection of zeta wave particles that expand throughout all space and time relaying information about every other particle and force in the universe back to a central mass of intelligence and then after reviewing all that information, this god like being decides to pick out a grain of sand that is our galaxy and within that grain of sand, picks out an atom, our solar system and then within that atom, picks out a quark, our planet and then living on that quark, he spies on every living creature impregnating a young 12 yr old girl in the middle east as his way of saying "Hi, how are you ? I exist" and you find all of this plausible ?

Seriously ?

It is up to the person who believes in God to define what God is.

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24-08-2012, 10:05 AM
RE: How can God be uncaused?
(24-08-2012 10:04 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(24-08-2012 09:52 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  I mean, what do you imagine god to be in any real sense. A large collection of zeta wave particles that expand throughout all space and time relaying information about every other particle and force in the universe back to a central mass of intelligence and then after reviewing all that information, this god like being decides to pick out a grain of sand that is our galaxy and within that grain of sand, picks out an atom, our solar system and then within that atom, picks out a quark, our planet and then living on that quark, he spies on every living creature impregnating a young 12 yr old girl in the middle east as his way of saying "Hi, how are you ? I exist" and you find all of this plausible ?

Seriously ?

It is up to the person who believes in God to define what God is.

And to provide evidence.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-08-2012, 02:48 PM
RE: How can God be uncaused?
(24-08-2012 06:49 AM)Chas Wrote:  
(23-08-2012 11:18 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  I think I addressed this in the other thread. At some point the causal chain must be broken because otherwise you have an infinite regress. Scientists view the Big Bang as an uncaused event, although it could have been caused by something else that was uncaused and we simply don't have a shred of evidence for it. In the same manner, God could be uncaused. Whatever the origin of time is was an uncaused event. Just because we can't understand or describe how something happens uncaused doesn't mean that nothing is -- logically, something had to be at the beginning.

No, just no. Scientists don't know the cause of the Big Bang and don't claim to. But they're working on it. No physicist says it is 'uncaused'.

I think you read a little too far into my post. I said "although it could have been caused by something else... and we... don't have a shred of evidence for it." So scientists, being the skeptics that they are, don't believe that the Big Bang had a cause because there isn't evidence of one.

But if the Big Bang created time, and the scientific consensus is that it did, then causality couldn't exist before then. Causality requires time, because if effect doesn't follow cause then you have something other than causality by definition. I myself have argued that time could have existed before the Big Bang, and if that's true, then the Big Bang could be a caused event... but the consensus isn't on my side with this hypothesis.

Here are citations supporting my assertion that scientists see the Big Bang as uncaused. Do you have any citations to support your assertion that "they're working on it"?

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24-08-2012, 02:50 PM (This post was last modified: 24-08-2012 02:53 PM by Logica Humano.)
RE: How can God be uncaused?
(24-08-2012 02:48 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  But if the Big Bang created time, and the scientific consensus is that it did, then causality couldn't exist before then. Causality requires time, because if effect doesn't follow cause then you have something other than causality by definition. I myself have argued that time could have existed before the Big Bang, and if that's true, then the Big Bang could be a caused event... but the consensus isn't on my side with this hypothesis.

This is simply because we do not understand what is outside our universe.




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24-08-2012, 02:51 PM
RE: How can God be uncaused?
Just use some critical and self-evaluating judgment on this one. Christians aren't wrong about everything, just as we aren't right about everything. This should be especially evident when one side has to erect a double-standard that allows their point to be true while the opponents' is false by the same standard. There are plenty of other reasons to disbelieve the God Hypothesis, but this isn't one of them.

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24-08-2012, 02:53 PM
RE: How can God be uncaused?
(24-08-2012 02:48 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(24-08-2012 06:49 AM)Chas Wrote:  No, just no. Scientists don't know the cause of the Big Bang and don't claim to. But they're working on it. No physicist says it is 'uncaused'.

I think you read a little too far into my post. I said "although it could have been caused by something else... and we... don't have a shred of evidence for it." So scientists, being the skeptics that they are, don't believe that the Big Bang had a cause because there isn't evidence of one.

No. Physicists are looking for the cause.

Quote:But if the Big Bang created time, and the scientific consensus is that it did, then causality couldn't exist before then. Causality requires time, because if effect doesn't follow cause then you have something other than causality by definition. I myself have argued that time could have existed before the Big Bang, and if that's true, then the Big Bang could be a caused event... but the consensus isn't on my side with this hypothesis.

Here are citations supporting my assertion that scientists see the Big Bang as uncaused. Do you have any citations to support your assertion that "they're working on it"?

String theory, for one.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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24-08-2012, 02:58 PM
RE: How can God be uncaused?
(24-08-2012 02:51 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  Just use some critical and self-evaluating judgment on this one. Christians aren't wrong about everything, just as we aren't right about everything. This should be especially evident when one side has to erect a double-standard that allows their point to be true while the opponents' is false by the same standard. There are plenty of other reasons to disbelieve the God Hypothesis, but this isn't one of them.

Your 'double standard' is a straw-man argument. There is no double standard.

What a skeptic says is: "We don't know the cause of the Big Bang, and you can't say it was God because you don't know, either."

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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