How can an infinite being place himself in a finite space?
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30-10-2012, 07:04 AM
RE: How can an infinite being place himself in a finite space?
Hey, A-the-T,

I always enjoyed what Rabbi Boruch Kaplan had to say (I will now butcher his quote).

The infinite is limited in that it can't express itself in a finite way, but God is neither infinite nor finite. He's beyond both finite and infinite because he creates both the infinite and finite space.

Insofar as an infinite being interacting with a finite space, I think of two things. The first being some kind of incursion, ie, imagine the universe is a glass of water. If you stick your finger into it, you're interacting with it, but you don't have to pour your entire being into it to do so. Second, I think about the incorporeal. Existing in the universe without any mass whatsoever. Like a ghost. Third, I think of things we know to be infinite. Like singularities. Infinite density but zero mass.

Anyhoo, God as omnipotent being is the ultimate in "a wizard did it" technology. There are no limitations for such a being.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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03-11-2012, 05:28 PM
RE: How can an infinite being place himself in a finite space?
Here's how to fit the infinite into a finite space.

First, consider the set of points (r, theta, phi) where r<=1. Leave these points alone. Next, consider the set of points (r, theta, phi) where r>1. Map these points to the interior of a second sphere with the coordinates (1/r, theta, phi). Now, every point in the infinite space will map to a point in one of the two balls. Take these two balls use them to generate sperm to impregnate a virgin.

QED
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03-11-2012, 05:33 PM
RE: How can an infinite being place himself in a finite space?
(03-11-2012 05:28 PM)Beren Wrote:  Here's how to fit the infinite into a finite space.

First, consider the set of points (r, theta, phi) where r<=1. Leave these points alone. Next, consider the set of points (r, theta, phi) where r>1. Map these points to the interior of a second sphere with the coordinates (1/r, theta, phi). Now, every point in the infinite space will map to a point in one of the two balls. Take these two balls use them to generate sperm to impregnate a virgin.

QED
Nicely put!

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03-11-2012, 05:43 PM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2012 07:45 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: How can an infinite being place himself in a finite space?
(30-10-2012 07:04 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, A-the-T,

I always enjoyed what Rabbi Boruch Kaplan had to say (I will now butcher his quote).

The infinite is limited in that it can't express itself in a finite way, but God is neither infinite nor finite. He's beyond both finite and infinite because he creates both the infinite and finite space.

Insofar as an infinite being interacting with a finite space, I think of two things. The first being some kind of incursion, ie, imagine the universe is a glass of water. If you stick your finger into it, you're interacting with it, but you don't have to pour your entire being into it to do so. Second, I think about the incorporeal. Existing in the universe without any mass whatsoever. Like a ghost. Third, I think of things we know to be infinite. Like singularities. Infinite density but zero mass.

Anyhoo, God as omnipotent being is the ultimate in "a wizard did it" technology. There are no limitations for such a being.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
The trouble with all that is you're using human language in a special case, and expecting others to accept your "special definition", and ignore the cognitive dissonance.

If you say "he creates" you have invoked a concept, and used a word with a temporal association. "To create" REQUIRES time. You can *think* about anything you like, any way you like, but you CAN'T expect others to accept that, without explaining how an "act", (creation) can proceed without time. You are unable to do that. You can't expect others to suspend ordinary common sense and the ordinary meaning of a word, and use it in a "special" sense, with out explaining why that is being done. Therefore the MOST you can do is remain silent, UNLESS you can find a way to describe your notion without injuring the language, and it's NORMAL use. If you're going to use a "special use" you must explain why it is appropriate, and justify the special use.

Your metaphor is 100% dependent on space and time. Unless you can explain how that makes sense in a dimension "other than" spacetime, it's *meaningless*. The words have no meaning content.

(BTW, you have no evidence that a god does anything, no matter how you choose to think about it.)

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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03-11-2012, 05:57 PM
RE: How can an infinite being place himself in a finite space?
Why is it necessary for this infinite god to fit inside of a finite universe? Why wouldn't the universe fit inside of the god?

See? You can't argue with folks who use creativity rather than reason. If you're using reason and they aren't, you're just making them feel smarter than you and wasting your time. You first need to teach them how to reason. Not an easy task for many.

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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03-11-2012, 06:26 PM
RE: How can an infinite being place himself in a finite space?
I don't really have a problem with the idea of an all-powerful god interacting with a universe he created in any way he likes. Sure, why not? There just isn't any evidence that this is the way the universe works, nor is there anything that this hypothesis can predict that would lend credence to its validity. And I don't mean merely explain, but actually predict. Anyone can make up an ad-hoc explanation for something that happened in the past. For example, I explain the resurrection as being caused by radiation emitted from a time-traveling probe returning to the Earth from Venus. The resurrected Jesus then ate the brains of the authors of the Gospel, and he continues to eat the brains of credulous people worldwide to this day.
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03-11-2012, 06:39 PM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2012 06:58 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: How can an infinite being place himself in a finite space?
(03-11-2012 05:57 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  Why is it necessary for this infinite god to fit inside of a finite universe? Why wouldn't the universe fit inside of the god?

See? You can't argue with folks who use creativity rather than reason. If you're using reason and they aren't, you're just making them feel smarter than you and wasting your time. You first need to teach them how to reason. Not an easy task for many.

The idea is that in order to manipulate the physical universe it would need to gain properties of that universe to have any kind of an effect on in it. These things would include space, time, and mass/energy.

The immaterial, timeless, and spaceless qualities shows the notion of god exists at no time, no where, and has no mass.

With out energy/mass, a place to exist and a time to act upon things, god resembles the notion of nothing.

Anyways after that you could show that an infinite being reaching into a finite universe gaining that universes properties would destroy that universe.

Consider however if this being does participate in the universe and for some strange reason performed all the "miracles" christians say he does. Then wouldn't his cause and effect be able to be measured?

Then the means by which the puppeteer pulls the strings could be uncovered.

Theologians detest that idea because it show the impossibility of their deity.

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03-11-2012, 08:04 PM
RE: How can an infinite being place himself in a finite space?
(03-11-2012 06:39 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(03-11-2012 05:57 PM)Cardinal Smurf Wrote:  Why is it necessary for this infinite god to fit inside of a finite universe? Why wouldn't the universe fit inside of the god?

See? You can't argue with folks who use creativity rather than reason. If you're using reason and they aren't, you're just making them feel smarter than you and wasting your time. You first need to teach them how to reason. Not an easy task for many.

The idea is that in order to manipulate the physical universe it would need to gain properties of that universe to have any kind of an effect on in it. These things would include space, time, and mass/energy.

The immaterial, timeless, and spaceless qualities shows the notion of god exists at no time, no where, and has no mass.

With out energy/mass, a place to exist and a time to act upon things, god resembles the notion of nothing.

Anyways after that you could show that an infinite being reaching into a finite universe gaining that universes properties would destroy that universe.

Consider however if this being does participate in the universe and for some strange reason performed all the "miracles" christians say he does. Then wouldn't his cause and effect be able to be measured?

Then the means by which the puppeteer pulls the strings could be uncovered.

Theologians detest that idea because it show the impossibility of their deity.
There is also a problem, with the "interventions".
If a god created the universe, and the laws by which it would operate, any "intervention" is not really just *one* intervention.
For example if a god were to have raised a dead guy named Jesus, THAT act would not really be a single miracle. It would literally be trillions of miracles, (or perhaps a much higher number). If there was a guy named Jesus who died, and was buried, his physical body, at some point on the day of death would have ceased all it's chemical processes, and his brain cells would have become desaturated of oxygen, and been damaged beyond repair. If THAT same, exact Jesus was to have been brought back to life, ALL the exact same neurological and physiological processes, enzymes, particular DNA mis-matches, and products from all his life's processes would have had to have been restarted EXACTLY as they had stopped. That many countless trillions or gazillions of atomic, and Quantum Mechanical changes and states would have had to be reversed, and brought back to a prior state, in their exact same position, and then restarted up. So actually the ENTIRE UNIVERSE would have had to be changed. (See the Pauli Exclusion Principle). It's not "one" intervention or miracle, it's the reversal, and change of established physical laws and internal and external interactions, of the ENTIRE UNIVERSE. There is no "single act within" the universe. ANY act in the universe, automatically changes the ENTIRE UNIVERSE.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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03-11-2012, 09:09 PM
RE: How can an infinite being place himself in a finite space?
(03-11-2012 08:04 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There is also a problem, with the "interventions".
If a god created the universe, and the laws by which it would operate, any "intervention" is not really just *one* intervention.
For example if a god were to have raised a dead guy named Jesus, THAT act would not really be a single miracle. It would literally be trillions of miracles, (or perhaps a much higher number). If there was a guy named Jesus who died, and was buried, his physical body, at some point on the day of death would have ceased all it's chemical processes, and his brain cells would have become desaturated of oxygen, and been damaged beyond repair. If THAT same, exact Jesus was to have been brought back to life, ALL the exact same neurological and physiological processes, enzymes, particular DNA mis-matches, and products from all his life's processes would have had to have been restarted EXACTLY as they had stopped. That many countless trillions or gazillions of atomic, and Quantum Mechanical changes and states would have had to be reversed, and brought back to a prior state, in their exact same position, and then restarted up. So actually the ENTIRE UNIVERSE would have had to be changed. (See the Pauli Exclusion Principle). It's not "one" intervention or miracle, it's the reversal, and change of established physical laws and internal and external interactions, of the ENTIRE UNIVERSE. There is no "single act within" the universe. ANY act in the universe, automatically changes the ENTIRE UNIVERSE.
If the universe is a simulation on God's computer, he could just stop the simulation, then copy and paste Jesus from when he was still alive.
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04-11-2012, 02:16 AM
RE: How can an infinite being place himself in a finite space?
(03-11-2012 09:09 PM)Beren Wrote:  If the universe is a simulation on God's computer, he could just stop the simulation, then copy and paste Jesus from when he was still alive.
Beware the Copy/Paste function!!!! It will inevitably embarrass embarrass embarrass embarrass embarrass embarrass embarrass you!!!

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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