How can military Chaplains live with themselves?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
01-11-2011, 02:03 PM (This post was last modified: 01-11-2011 02:08 PM by houseofcantor.)
RE: How can military Chaplains live with themselves?
(31-10-2011 03:37 PM)Zatamon Wrote:  I have been watching M*A*S*H (all 11 seasons) for some time and just got to one episode in which Father Mulcahy is trying to convince an AWOL private to go back to the front line and continue doing his ‘duty’.

The padre is not supposed to be a hypocrite and an idiot, he is a decent guy, deeply believing in his god, yet urging a human being to return to killing other human beings.

How was the Sixth Commandment, exactly?

Something about “You shall not kill”.

Apart from all being crazy, can anyone explain this to me?

Huh
Just don't kill me, Captain. Big Grin

I got this one licked. Identity is dual-state. YHWH is "I am that I am." Therefore it is the individual "I am" who has faith in YHWH that can act as an "I am" without logic nor reason. Simple math for the win. Tongue

(31-10-2011 05:40 PM)Organon Wrote:  
(31-10-2011 03:37 PM)Zatamon Wrote:  How was the Sixth Commandment, exactly?

Something about “You shall not kill”.

It's my theory that each of the Christian Commandments has an understood "unless" after it. Each "unless" covers every conceivable reason why the Commandment can be disobeyed. A bit like the bible, really, you interpret it to suit yourself.

This then covers the Christian's backside in the event of breaking the Commandment.

Tongue
You do realize that there are some 617 commandments in that dust old tome? But none of them matter past the first, once the first is understood.

"Thou shalt have no god before me." Therefore you are god. It is the divine interpretation of the golden rule... I guess one just hasta be all divine and shit like me to understand it. Tongue

[Image: klingon_zps7e68578a.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
01-11-2011, 04:20 PM
 
RE: How can military Chaplains live with themselves?
OK, here is my last angle: a very short one.

What could convince an intelligent, honest, humane christian believer that it is god's wish to kill other intelligent, honest, humane christians?

(Please humour me and assume that such christians do exist and that they see killing each other justified).

What is the secret argument that trumps everything else (intelligence, honesty, decency, brotherly love?)

If you don't know the answer, that's fine, just say so (if you wish to) -- but I think it is a valid, intriguing question, to which I very much would love to know the answer.

If I can't find it, that's OK too.
Quote this message in a reply
01-11-2011, 05:21 PM
RE: How can military Chaplains live with themselves?
Evolution.

As morality is simple, evolved functionality for control; life has no intrinsic value for the Moral Will, rather the survivability of species is paramount. It is that I love that my Moral Will is thus not rendered asinine by indentured slavery to evolutionary paradigm. Wink

[Image: klingon_zps7e68578a.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-11-2011, 10:32 AM
RE: How can military Chaplains live with themselves?
(01-11-2011 04:20 PM)Zatamon Wrote:  OK, here is my last angle: a very short one.

What could convince an intelligent, honest, humane christian believer that it is god's wish to kill other intelligent, honest, humane christians?

(Please humour me and assume that such christians do exist and that they see killing each other justified).

What is the secret argument that trumps everything else (intelligence, honesty, decency, brotherly love?)

If you don't know the answer, that's fine, just say so (if you wish to) -- but I think it is a valid, intriguing question, to which I very much would love to know the answer.

If I can't find it, that's OK too.

Nationalism. I think there was a lot of direct evidence of from the rise of European battleground of established nations fighting against each-other despite them having a nearly similar belief. A vast part of WWI was directly resulted from this and their belief in their own nations superiority put these soldiers up against fellow men that shared the same belief they had no reason to despise.

Maybe this seems to not stress the idea that it is their thinking of it as God's will to do the killing, but the book, "All Quiet on the Western Front," as well as several others I'm sure, show a perfect model on the mindset and confusion that goes on with soldiers who are good Christians dealing with the point of the war and questioning who is gaining anything from the war. The key moments that relate is when the main character is watching prisoner Russian soldiers who he realizes aren't villainies who are any different yet they still are people they get convinced it is fine to murder.

I'm sure a Chaplin can easily be misguided by the whole Nationalist idea that his country is superior and the only one with the right will of God, for no reasoning.

Even beyond that I think the simplistic things can convince people their opposition is wrong in the eyes of their God. There is supposedly 38,000 denominations of Christianity, there is differences in details so meaningless that have convinced people to kill the other for being blasphemers.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-11-2011, 01:33 AM
RE: How can military Chaplains live with themselves?
(02-11-2011 10:32 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(01-11-2011 04:20 PM)Zatamon Wrote:  OK, here is my last angle: a very short one.

What could convince an intelligent, honest, humane christian believer that it is god's wish to kill other intelligent, honest, humane christians?

(Please humour me and assume that such christians do exist and that they see killing each other justified).

What is the secret argument that trumps everything else (intelligence, honesty, decency, brotherly love?)

If you don't know the answer, that's fine, just say so (if you wish to) -- but I think it is a valid, intriguing question, to which I very much would love to know the answer.

If I can't find it, that's OK too.

Nationalism.

Which is derivative of Paul and Christianity and worldwide through Constantine. Evolution, I say!

(I ain't "right," I'm arguing. Big Grin)

[Image: klingon_zps7e68578a.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-11-2011, 08:46 AM
RE: How can military Chaplains live with themselves?
Has anyone asked a chaplin this question or perhaps read a book about this question? There must be existing arguments from the chaplins themselves.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-11-2011, 10:46 AM
RE: How can military Chaplains live with themselves?
Hey Matt not sure how many actual chaplains you've ever spoken to in your life but I can only assume it isn't many and it probably never crossed your mind at the time to ask them a question that makes them feel defensive.
I have asked priests questions such as this one and as a matter of fact when I was a youth interested in religion as an option I was asked not to attend a certain church anymore due to asking questions just like this one.
Religious people aren't really prone to answering these types of questions or even thinking about them out loud because it becomes a conflict within themselves. It is one of the very obvious contradictions of bible to life that has no real answer that could possibly make religion sound good.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-11-2011, 11:13 AM
RE: How can military Chaplains live with themselves?
Hey, Lucradis.

I have encountered chaplains in my life. Please ask me my experiences before you proclaim them.

I never thought to ask them this question myself. That's why I was asking if anyone else had. I was asking if anyone knew what they thought about this issue. It's a no-brainer that they've grappled with this issue themselves. So what do they say about it? So far there's a lot of opinion and conjecture but no one has offered anything about the actual people involved. There’s nothing wrong with that per se, but it’s very one-sided. If someone asks the question, "How do biologists live with themselves when they test on monkeys," you'd figure that someone would speak to how biologists see the issue. If people aren't interested in that, fine, so be it, but my question is legitimate. So instead of challenging me as a person for asking a simple rudimentary question, how about you answer the question next time?

I don't know what level of discourse I'm actually expecting here. It's a thread about the inner conflicts of a fictional character. It's like asking how cops live with themselves after watching a Steven Segal movie. But if we are going to try and have an intelligent conversation, perhaps including the actual justifications of actual human beings might help things. I don't see how suggesting that it's impossible to get an answer out of them helps the discourse. Especially when a two second Google books search yields this.

Quote:Religious people aren't really prone to answering these types of questions or even thinking about them out loud because it becomes a conflict within themselves.

If that's your experience, fine. But that's anecdotal, not factual. I know many ministers and priests and I don't know a single one that would duck a question about anything. But that's my experience and that too is anecdotal. But all of that is irrelevant because none of it has anything to do with what I asked. It was a simple question. Does anyone know? How that sort of question is objectionable is beyond me.

If I’m not mistaken, your answer is no. Great. Does anyone else have something to offer?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-11-2011, 11:28 AM
RE: How can military Chaplains live with themselves?
Well that was a whole bunch of attitude now wasn't it. I never proclaimed you actual experience only my assumption based on your comment. Which as it turned out was close to the truth. So shove your attitude Matt. I have asked the question and I also answered the question asked here. I used actual experience to answer it. Imagine that.
While we're at it don't you think it's time for you to drop the signature? You don't live up to it.
Personal attack over. Have a great day.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
04-11-2011, 12:03 PM
 
RE: How can military Chaplains live with themselves?
(04-11-2011 11:13 AM)Ghost Wrote:  If someone asks the question, "How do biologists live with themselves when they test on monkeys," you'd figure that someone would speak to how biologists see the issue.

...and I would love to hear the answer.

Although, as I suspect, it would be justified by claiming benefit to one species at the expense of another (a whole different scenario).

However, the OP posited a scenario where 2 'equally' christian nations are killing each other. I would love to hear what any chaplain, or even religious person, would use to justify that.

So far none came forward.

Maybe for good reason?
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: