How can people be so different?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
07-02-2013, 01:59 PM
RE: How can people be so different?
(07-02-2013 09:36 AM)Ghost Wrote:  What we can never escape is ideology itself.
...
I should like you explain this more, Ghost -- first please define 'ideology' and then convince me that we can never escape it.

In my fantasies, I dream of an ideologyless world.

Where we can just live, like intelligent primates, producing for our needs and sharing the results.

Do primates have ideology?

I doubt it.

So why do we?

If I may:

"I spent decades on a lone quest,
studied all the disciplines to explain:
why we can’t “just live”
without hurting, destroying lives.
And then, one day, finally I learnt the answer
and it was the best to find,
and, in a curious way,
it has brought peace
to my mind.

We all do what we think needs done
to get our desire:
some need beauty and love
others want possessions,
power, excitement -
most just hope to survive."

I think ideology is a disease of the mind, preventing us from 'just' living.

What do you think?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-02-2013, 02:19 PM
RE: How can people be so different?
(07-02-2013 01:59 PM)Zat Wrote:  
(07-02-2013 09:36 AM)Ghost Wrote:  What we can never escape is ideology itself.
...
I should like you explain this more, Ghost -- first please define 'ideology' and then convince me that we can never escape it.

In my fantasies, I dream of an ideologyless world.

Where we can just live, like intelligent primates, producing for our needs and sharing the results.

Do primates have ideology?

I doubt it.

So why do we?

If I may:

"I spent decades on a lone quest,
studied all the disciplines to explain:
why we can’t “just live”
without hurting, destroying lives.
And then, one day, finally I learnt the answer
and it was the best to find,
and, in a curious way,
it has brought peace
to my mind.

We all do what we think needs done
to get our desire:
some need beauty and love
others want possessions,
power, excitement -
most just hope to survive."

I think ideology is a disease of the mind, preventing us from 'just' living.

What do you think?
Are you suggesting that evolution has carried us beyond the pale if I might use a cliche'.
I would agree that the world's ideologies, in opposing and never looking to any consensus, really come across as insanity.
The existentialist writer R.D. Laing once wrote of "people playing the game of reality, with no real cards in their hands"; it is all rather depressing.

Life seems to come across as a sort of demand to join one of the tribes, irrespective of any intrinsic worth, just to belong. But to what?

As for science, the apparatus is obviously of great value in getting things done.
However, what do we do with the ego of those who would push for pseudo values reflecting vested interests?
I am not talking about scientists such as yourself; rather, the governing bodies, the policy makers, the corporate people, advisors, entrepreneurs et al. If the system(s) are inherently largely rotten, or misguided at the core, what can we do?

Presently reading Foucault's The History of Madness (very long/heavy)...............can't see much improvement.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Mr Woof's post
07-02-2013, 02:35 PM
RE: How can people be so different?
Quote:Are you suggesting that evolution has carried us beyond the pale if I might use a cliche'.

It seems that way, Mr Woof.

Quote:Life seems to come across as a sort of demand to join one of the tribes, irrespective of any intrinsic worth, just to belong. But to what?

I think you just hit upon the answer. Anthropologically we are a tribal species and belonging to (being accepted by) the tribe is of paramount survival value.

However, we should have 'evolved' beyond this tribalism by now and contrast what science offers us with what tribalism represents. The two are incompatible. We depend on science, every minute of our lives: when we cross a bridge, when we fly on a plane, when we eat our food, when we go to a doctor, when we talk on a cell phone.

This utter dependence should give us a clear choice: do we vote for what our lives depend on, or do we believe the shamans?

Quote:However, what do we do with the ego of those who would push for pseudo values reflecting vested interests?

If viable -- save them. If not -- get them out of our way.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
07-02-2013, 04:17 PM (This post was last modified: 07-02-2013 05:46 PM by Luminon.)
RE: How can people be so different?
(07-02-2013 09:36 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Zat.

Critical thinking helps us see the contradictions in our ideologies and constantly return to the discourse that creates ideological knowledge. What we can never escape is ideology itself.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Hey Matt!

We can escape ideology! Ideology is an one-way road. Who do we serve? If we serve the people and the environment (greatest good for the greatest numbers), we have to react in all kinds of ways, rationally, to threats and opportunities. But if we serve an ideology, we're allowed to act in one way only, to support the ideology that is. Even if it should lead towards our destruction. So we must always focus on the people and environment, on the broadest possible group of people and on environment as a whole. Then we'll be safe from ideology.

Example: if the goal is human well-being (and efficiency towards the environment), we regulate the production of goods by the detected needs of the society. We may increase the production, sustain it or decrease it. OTOH, if the goal is a monetary increase (profit) then from the global point of view we are not allowed to decrease or sustain production, we are only allowed to increase the growth. Already on a national level it is considered a bad thing if economy does not grow or even slows down its growth.

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
The Venus Project
FreeDomain Radio - The greatest philosophy show on the web!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Luminon's post
08-02-2013, 07:28 AM
RE: How can people be so different?
Hey, Luminon.

You might as well say we can escape breathing and dying. We cannot. Ideology isn't a pejorative word. It is what it is. We are always agents of and subject to ideology. That's how humans function. Understanding that is what frees us for action. Ignoring it damns us.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
08-02-2013, 08:42 AM (This post was last modified: 08-02-2013 09:12 AM by Luminon.)
RE: How can people be so different?
(08-02-2013 07:28 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Luminon.

You might as well say we can escape breathing and dying. We cannot. Ideology isn't a pejorative word. It is what it is. We are always agents of and subject to ideology. That's how humans function. Understanding that is what frees us for action. Ignoring it damns us.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
Yes, we are like walking, receptive computers that acquire and execute programs. However, every program performs only one thing, what its code says. We must have a broad oversight and have multiple programs and switch between them intelligently, according to an immediate, real need. We must have a whole toolbox of methods and ideas to choose from.


These mental programs must be seen as instruments used to serve for a greater purpose outside themselves. An instrument must not be allowed to serve itself, because then it becomes ideology. And the only thing an ideology ever does is self-preservation and self-propagation. In this aspect, all ideologies are the same - thus easily recognizable. They may have a different impact - for example putting out red flags instead of erecting crosses, or (nudge, nudge, wink) painting squares or circles on walls, but besides that they all do the same thing. What computer viruses do. Spread, grow, control, spread, grow, control, spread...

As you say, understanding frees us. Understanding of the difference between a toolbox of instruments and dominating ideology frees us to use any instruments that we see fit to solve a real problem. It also frees us from being dominated by a single instrument/program/ideology.

However, if we see another person with a piece of ideology lodged in his brain - not a big one perhaps, but nonetheless one that controls a small area of the user instead being a small instrument in itself, there's a problem. It is the splinter in eye of thy brother's, as Jesus said. To try to pull that piece of ideology out is about as pleasant as performing a brain surgery on that person without narcosis.
One has to pull out a greater and more difficult plank of one's eye before trying to extract the splinter. The plank being the idea that we are evidently righteous, the person will see our righteousness and we can just correct the other person directly. Unfortunately, ideologies are not peaceful files that sit on the hard drive, they are like computer viruses that defend themselves from attempt of erasing and may even cause breakdown of the OS when erased.
Even Socratic method, such an elaborate and precise instrument as it is, nonetheless it may work as a criticism and most likely will piss off the person. At the very least we need to know how to tiptoe around it. Oh, I wish I was a surgeon of human minds, a pharmacist mixing broad-spectral mental antibiotics against the persistent strains of mental infection. Perhaps this is what we learn here on the forum.

But the whole underlying lesson is, to grow brains in such a way that infections do not occur, because there is no easy cure for a system open to infection. Use Microsoft Singularity instead of MS Windows, RBE instead of capitalism, and teach children critical thinking as soon as they start to think.

If you claim there are nuances to principles, there are no nuances to getting arrested or shot for disobeying the power.
The Venus Project
FreeDomain Radio - The greatest philosophy show on the web!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: