How can people still be religious knowing Evolution is a fact?
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27-06-2012, 02:14 PM
RE: How can people still be religious knowing Evolution is a fact?
(27-06-2012 01:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  No, most of us mean there is no credible evidence for creationism.

Ha - he who is terse and deadly... I say... sic 'em. Smile

I think in the end, I just feel like I'm a secular person who has a skeptical eye toward any extraordinary claim, carefully examining any extraordinary evidence before jumping to conclusions. ~ Eric ~ My friend ... who figured it out.
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27-06-2012, 02:15 PM
RE: How can people still be religious knowing Evolution is a fact?
(27-06-2012 01:51 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(27-06-2012 12:21 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  Well, I think you would agree that there is significant scientific evidence to show the universe diriving from a singularity, also showing that the universe has not always existed or been even close to what it is now.
That itself is evidence, not proof, of intent which would seem to lead to evidence of creation. You can derive your own conclusion from that evidence and choose to scrap all other possible conclusions for what ever reason that suits you, or you can keep the mind open to other possible conclusions given emperical evidence.

But yes, there is evidence for creationism. You may have meant to say there is not proof for creationism.
No, most of us mean there is no credible evidence for creationism.
It isn't just a matter of credible evidence.. The example given there is not evidence of creationism or the opposite. The scientific findings that lead to the idea that the universe has come from a singularity is evidence that the universe has come from a singularity. Nothing about that is evidence of creationism nor disproving evidence.

Having an open mind to possibilities is not concerning evidence. You can have an open mind to all the possibilities in the universe, yet that does not account for evidence.

The only evidence for creationism is legend and written words. It's very weak no the chain of evidence but that's all there actually is. That's why the I.D. movement isn't promoting any creationist proof, their whole movement is attacks against so called flaws of evolution, Abiogenesis, and Astrophysics. The legend of the Yggdrasil Tree being the universe which branches were taken from to form man is as far as the argument can claim.

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27-06-2012, 02:37 PM
RE: How can people still be religious knowing Evolution is a fact?
(27-06-2012 12:28 PM)Vosur Wrote:  
(27-06-2012 12:21 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  But yes, there is evidence for creationism. You may have meant to say there is not proof for creationism.
What kind of evidence for Creationism is there?
Creationists, obviously. Evil_monster

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09-07-2012, 09:35 AM
RE: How can people still be religious knowing Evolution is a fact?
So I'm still stuck on this topic and the spinning of words in different directions.
As far as I know, the nature of evidence has always been such that if you did not know the conclusion, then testing was a way of getting to possible conclusions.
When I looked up the definition of Evidence to figure this out, it came back with - The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

So, when you say "There is no credible evidence for creationism", you're basically saying that no matter what, the "belief or proposition" that an intelligent being caused the universe into existence will never be an option right?
If that's true, then either I am misunderstanding the nature of what we call evidence, or there is a touch of bias..

If I am willing to accept that the definition of evidence is such that should not allow for bias if you truly want to understand the universe, and that it is possible that a God may not exist, why would the other side of the fence not be willing to do the same?

I can't stand bias, and am always trying to rid myself of it.
I find it to be an honorable quality.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

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09-07-2012, 12:42 PM
RE: How can people still be religious knowing Evolution is a fact?
(09-07-2012 09:35 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  So I'm still stuck on this topic and the spinning of words in different directions.
As far as I know, the nature of evidence has always been such that if you did not know the conclusion, then testing was a way of getting to possible conclusions.
When I looked up the definition of Evidence to figure this out, it came back with - The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

So, when you say "There is no credible evidence for creationism", you're basically saying that no matter what, the "belief or proposition" that an intelligent being caused the universe into existence will never be an option right?
If that's true, then either I am misunderstanding the nature of what we call evidence, or there is a touch of bias..

If I am willing to accept that the definition of evidence is such that should not allow for bias if you truly want to understand the universe, and that it is possible that a God may not exist, why would the other side of the fence not be willing to do the same?

I can't stand bias, and am always trying to rid myself of it.
I find it to be an honorable quality.
The reason why we claim that there is no credible evidence for Creationism is because it's logically impossible to come up with any evidence for it. In other words, it's not possible to prove the existence of a non-physical being by using physical methods. It's the same reason why it's impossible to (dis)prove the existence of any God.

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09-07-2012, 02:57 PM
RE: How can people still be religious knowing Evolution is a fact?
(09-07-2012 12:42 PM)Vosur Wrote:  The reason why we claim that there is no credible evidence for Creationism is because it's logically impossible to come up with any evidence for it. In other words, it's not possible to prove the existence of a non-physical being by using physical methods. It's the same reason why it's impossible to (dis)prove the existence of any God.
Perhaps the way I view evidence and the way you view evidence are different.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

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09-07-2012, 04:37 PM
RE: How can people still be religious knowing Evolution is a fact?
(09-07-2012 09:35 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  So I'm still stuck on this topic and the spinning of words in different directions.
As far as I know, the nature of evidence has always been such that if you did not know the conclusion, then testing was a way of getting to possible conclusions.
When I looked up the definition of Evidence to figure this out, it came back with - The available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid.

So, when you say "There is no credible evidence for creationism", you're basically saying that no matter what, the "belief or proposition" that an intelligent being caused the universe into existence will never be an option right?
If that's true, then either I am misunderstanding the nature of what we call evidence, or there is a touch of bias..

If I am willing to accept that the definition of evidence is such that should not allow for bias if you truly want to understand the universe, and that it is possible that a God may not exist, why would the other side of the fence not be willing to do the same?

I can't stand bias, and am always trying to rid myself of it.
I find it to be an honorable quality.
I think you're straw-manning the atheist position slightly... it was said "there is no credible evidence for creationism", not "there will never be credible evidence for creationism"... although some of us may claim exactly that. There are natural explanations for life coming to be in its present state (evolution) and for the universe coming to be (big bang), and that's all we need to answer these questions. We trust the scientific method to give us answers, and the scientific method is methodologically naturalistic. The supernatural is, by definition, impossible to measure with natural tools -- and that's all we have to measure with.

It's like when ghost hunters take out thermal imaging cameras and tape recorders and they tell us that they've found ghosts with these tools. The skeptical want proof first that these tools can find ghosts -- and that begs the question. Those who believe by faith assume that these tools can find ghosts, and thus they find evidence of ghosts.

So we may indeed have a different definition of evidence than you do, and the evidence that you present will probably be ignored. It's not bias per se (although in many cases it is), but rather differences in epistemology. We believe that your explanations simply bring more questions than answers. But all the same, kudos on wanting to take bias out of the equation. I love that. I think most of us would rather look at things rationally than subjectively.

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10-07-2012, 05:18 AM
RE: How can people still be religious knowing Evolution is a fact?
(09-07-2012 04:37 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  I think you're straw-manning the atheist position slightly... it was said "there is no credible evidence for creationism", not "there will never be credible evidence for creationism"... although some of us may claim exactly that. There are natural explanations for life coming to be in its present state (evolution) and for the universe coming to be (big bang), and that's all we need to answer these questions. We trust the scientific method to give us answers, and the scientific method is methodologically naturalistic. The supernatural is, by definition, impossible to measure with natural tools -- and that's all we have to measure with.

It's like when ghost hunters take out thermal imaging cameras and tape recorders and they tell us that they've found ghosts with these tools. The skeptical want proof first that these tools can find ghosts -- and that begs the question. Those who believe by faith assume that these tools can find ghosts, and thus they find evidence of ghosts.

So we may indeed have a different definition of evidence than you do, and the evidence that you present will probably be ignored. It's not bias per se (although in many cases it is), but rather differences in epistemology. We believe that your explanations simply bring more questions than answers. But all the same, kudos on wanting to take bias out of the equation. I love that. I think most of us would rather look at things rationally than subjectively.
Ok, you bring up good points here that I didn't pay attention to while making my observations.
I know I don't have an adequate answer in this post, but you've brought up a new line of thinking for me.
I just need to organize my thoughts and take notes lol (after I get back from work)..

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

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10-07-2012, 05:43 AM
RE: How can people still be religious knowing Evolution is a fact?
(09-07-2012 04:37 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  Those who believe by faith assume that these tools can find ghosts, and thus they find evidence of ghosts.

That's how I got fuckered. God shows up on the jobsite, and then the Bible makes sense... well, about two pages of sense. And 666 pages of evil. Big Grin

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