How can the universe be uncaused?
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23-08-2012, 12:10 PM
RE: How can the universe be uncaused?
well, time as we "know" is part of this universe and thus began with this universe; causality requires time: one thing causes the other, there's a time reference there... if there's not time, then there's no causality as we understand it, thus anything is possible, even an effect "without" a cause.

I see it like a scrambled jigsaw puzzle, all the pieces have the same laws and together in the right order make a coherent picture, so for a being living inside a piece everything looks nice and tidy (it can move from one piece to another, don't ask why, that's the limit of the analogy) but if this being moves out of the piece and looks down and tries to understand the same puzzle by the rules that are applied to the piece, it won't work, this being would only see a mess with no coherence whatsoever. From this meta point of view, we could safely say that we, by existing, cause the universe to exist, because in a timeless frame of reference, there's no problem in reversing the cause-effect order.

The problems with this view is that I have to assume the nothingness somehow IS (as a frame for the universe) and that is pretty much impossible to prove. But at least it makes the "what caused the universe?" question go away... in a simplified way, the universe caused it self, because the universe as a whole doesn't need to follow the same laws as its parts.

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23-08-2012, 12:48 PM
RE: How can the universe be uncaused?
"Universe" and "origin" are human concepts. How does a human begin? Not with birth, what comes outta the womb is primate; we begin with socialization, civilization, education.

So who created the universe? Gwyneth Paltrow, she's my "purpose," my raison d'être, why would I need another? Why would you need mine? That's what it is to be an adult. Tell me about the necessity of your god, it is as if I need guidance like a child. And to talk about the origin of the universe, is to talk in the language of mathematics, not theology.

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23-08-2012, 12:56 PM (This post was last modified: 23-08-2012 01:31 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: How can the universe be uncaused?
What I or anyone else "believes" to be the cause of this universe is irrelevant.
The only thing that is relevant is (not "beliefs" .. but), evidence.

Why is that ?

1. All of Western Philosophy, much of Theology, (with major exceptions), is built on the assumption that what appears to human brains, is "intuitively" correct, ("logical").
Humans assumed for thousands of years that what appeared to their senses, (and their sense extensions ..ie telescopes, and microscopes, gamma ray detectors, etc., etc)., can be assumed to be the fundamental nature of reality.

2. This view of reality was rocked in the early Twentieth Century, when Einsten proposed, and then proved his Theory of Relativity. He proved that what appears logical, and intuitive cannot be assumed to be so. (He proved that there is no absolute time, and that time is intimately connected to space, and ever since Physicists have called it "spacetime"). Space and time are "relative" by one's acceleration and direction, to another's position in spacetime, and can in general be calculated. However the relative positions are not the same. Therefore the "intuitive nature" of the universe was destroyed, forever. While Relativity and Special Relativity have been around for almost 100 years many people do not actually know about it, and certainly do not understand it's implications. (Google "Relativity")

3. Then Werner Heisenberg proposed his Uncertainty Theorem, which arose when the Double Slit Experiment in Physics proved that one cannot know with certainty both the momentum and position of a particle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty
This further destroyed the "intuitive" assumptions of the nature of the universe.

4. Then Paul Dirac, the predecessor of Steven Hawking, and Nobel Winner, holder of the Leucasian Chair/Professorship at Cambridge, proposed his Theory, (the "plane wave" solution), or spinor, (metric tensors etc.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Dirac
This completely destroyed the idea that the universe could be thought of as intuitive.

Due to the above 3, (among others) developments, it has become clear to 21st century humans, that the ONLY thing which is acceptable as "representing" reality, is that for which there is evidence. Human "logic" is not reliable, and that which appears to be "intuitive" to our limited brains, is not reliable.

Thus the intuitive assumption/premise, that "everything that is, has a cause", as a Logical syllogism is unreliable, as has been proven at least three times in the last century.

If a god "acted", "decided", "saw", "thought", "did" anything, it implies that spacetime is already, (as well as "causality") in place. If causality and spacetime are necessary, a priori, the god cannot be the creator of that which is a priori necessary. (This also can be seen to be refuted by the "non-intuitive" nature of reality in this universe, however, just as there is NO EVIDENCE for the creator, there is no evidence that this is not the case, ... yet).

The concept of a "singularity" (such as a Black Hole), is important. At a "singularity" the normal "laws" of Physics break down, and we know that spacetime slows, and comes to a stop. Therefore, saying something "caused" something, BEFORE that which may have been a singularity, is meaningless. The Big Bang is thought by some to have been a Singularity. It may or may not have been one. We simply do not know yet, at this point in human history.

However, the concept that the 70th son of El Elyon, the god of the armies, (Yahweh Sabaoth), who was introduced into human history by human beings, at a known point in human history, by a known human culture, by humans who were totally unaware of science, or any of the above, or even aware that they were on a planet which circled the sun, is so totally, utterly preposterous, as to defy all comprehension, as well as any known probability equation.

The only reliable information we know of, for the detection, and evaluation of reality, is evidence. There is no evidence for gods.
That is the general state of human knowledge of this matter, at this time.

This leaves us with two additional problems, of this particular instance, if one would assert that the above god is the cause .. ie the Linguistic problem, and the Bayesian, (statistical) problem.

1. If one is going to assert that "a creator caused the universe", what one is actually "doing", by placing that set of English words in that order, in the English language, is asserting that what one "thinks" one actually "means" by saying those words, in that order, actually
a. has any real "meaning", and b. actually holds the same "meaning" for another human set of brain cells.
(Without extensive experimentation, and description, and definition, one cannot assume "a" to be true).
b. What one is also doing, is asserting that the Bayesian probability concept is applicable to this situation.
That may or may not be the case. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bayes'_theorem

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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23-08-2012, 02:44 PM
RE: How can the universe be uncaused?
Hey everybody, just wanted to let you know I'm watching Krauss right now and will slowly wade through everything that's been posted thus far. Thank you for your contributions Smile
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23-08-2012, 03:02 PM
RE: How can the universe be uncaused?
(23-08-2012 02:44 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  Hey everybody, just wanted to let you know I'm watching Krauss right now and will slowly wade through everything that's been posted thus far. Thank you for your contributions Smile

Now you can stay. Thumbsup

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23-08-2012, 03:45 PM
RE: How can the universe be uncaused?
(22-08-2012 03:39 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  ... This thread is about what you believe is the origin of the universe. I gave you my beliefs just to give a context to the question and just a quick background of my beliefs. This is why I haven't responded to those of you have posted criticisms of my view. I came to learn. ...

I don't believe anything about the origin of the universe. I and others are able to observe aspects of the origin, and consequentially consider many ideas about it, but nothing is absolute. Understanding these mechanisms, might require an area of study that wouldn't be conceptualized in the same way you study now.

The main thing is... there is no belief regarding the origin of the universe. There are theories and of course the main one is that there was a big bang. This theory is currently very plausible and much data has been gathered pertaining to, and in support of it. A brief study of physics and cosmology would be of great help in understanding this big bang concept and as well as other possible theories surrounding this area of study. It might seem difficult, but it's not entirely out of the layman's grasp of understanding.

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A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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23-08-2012, 05:06 PM
RE: How can the universe be uncaused?
What we need here is the uncreated creator of the created universe dude.

I'm not anti-social. I'm pro-solitude. Sleepy
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23-08-2012, 05:15 PM (This post was last modified: 25-08-2012 07:29 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: How can the universe be uncaused?
(23-08-2012 05:06 PM)Anjele Wrote:  What we need here is the uncreated creator of the created universe dude.

You mean my "boyfriend", Pachomius ?
OMF'nG. "Pachy and Backy". Those were the days.
If he shows up, YOU can deal with him.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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23-08-2012, 06:09 PM
RE: How can the universe be uncaused?
(23-08-2012 05:15 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(23-08-2012 05:06 PM)Anjele Wrote:  What we need here is the uncreated creator of the created universe dude.

You mean my "boyfriend" ? Pachomius ?
OMF'nG. "Pachy and Backy". Those were the days.
If he shows up, YOU can deal with him.

If he shows up again I think my head will explode. One go-round was plenty, thanks.

I'm not anti-social. I'm pro-solitude. Sleepy
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25-08-2012, 02:31 PM
RE: How can the universe be uncaused?
Okay, I watched all the videos that were posted and I've read up more on this issue, and I have scientific american articles written by Krauss on hand if I need to read more.

I actually enjoyed the videos immensely, and they peaked my interest in quantum physics/mechanics, an area I am less familiar with. The main question that arose from my watching and reading is what evidence would you give to support the claim that the quantum universe has existed eternally and is non-contigent?


I also briefly examined the big crunch, and one of issues that appeared to arise with that would be the enormous amount of excess radiation from an infinite amount of explosions. What say you on that? If I have confused the oscillating theory for the big crunch, I apologize and request more specific information about the big crunch.

Thanks everybody! I have thus far found this to be a very enlightening excursion Smile
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