How can the universe be uncaused?
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26-08-2012, 07:08 PM
RE: How can the universe be uncaused?
(25-08-2012 02:31 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  Okay, I watched all the videos that were posted and I've read up more on this issue, and I have scientific american articles written by Krauss on hand if I need to read more.

I actually enjoyed the videos immensely, and they peaked my interest in quantum physics/mechanics, an area I am less familiar with. The main question that arose from my watching and reading is what evidence would you give to support the claim that the quantum universe has existed eternally and is non-contigent?

I didn't see where in those videos that particular claim was made, or how you came to that conclusion.

But it's a good question. First off you have to understand the nature of time in the different theory's. Some provide cyclical time, linear time, and infinite time.

Second.. non-contingent as in non-dependant on? or highly likely?


(25-08-2012 02:31 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  I also briefly examined the big crunch, and one of issues that appeared to arise with that would be the enormous amount of excess radiation from an infinite amount of explosions. What say you on that? If I have confused the oscillating theory for the big crunch, I apologize and request more specific information about the big crunch.

Thanks everybody! I have thus far found this to be a very enlightening excursion Smile

What if the universe always expands enough to allow that radiation to dissipate?

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26-08-2012, 07:19 PM (This post was last modified: 26-08-2012 07:31 PM by fstratzero.)
RE: How can the universe be uncaused?
(26-08-2012 11:51 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(26-08-2012 07:58 AM)SarcasticIndeed Wrote:  Kay, I'm new to the forums, but I guess this would be a good place to post the first time.

While I still don't know the final answer to the question, I believe the universe was uncaused. Before the Big Bang, there was apparently, no space-time, and we don't know if causation applies to it. Additionally, we see a bunch of quantum fluctuations coming out of nothing, uncaused, so I don't see what's the problem.

Infinite Regress,
Causation,
Something from a literal nothing (or else, infinite regress)

Just to name a few.

We're sitting inside a universe when, if there's not cause, then there should be no "we" there should be no universe, matter, space-time... there should be no thing.

The idea of either the universe is caused from nothing or infinite regress, is a false dichotomy, and a slippery slope in a neat package.

The truth is we don't know yet in what way or process the universe began to expand. It could have been (name favorite theory here).

We have begun to whittle away the quantum theories using the scientific method we've been able to get closer to whats actually going on out there, and possibly figure out the answer. Whatever the data show us is what we'll adhere to.

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26-08-2012, 07:28 PM
RE: How can the universe be uncaused?
(26-08-2012 07:19 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  We have begun to widdle whittle away the quantum theories using the scientific method we've been able to get closer to whats actually going on out there, and possibly figure out the answer. What ever Whatever the data shows show us is what we'll adhere to.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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26-08-2012, 07:32 PM
RE: How can the universe be uncaused?
(26-08-2012 07:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(26-08-2012 07:19 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  We have begun to widdle whittle away the quantum theories using the scientific method we've been able to get closer to whats actually going on out there, and possibly figure out the answer. What ever Whatever the data shows show us is what we'll adhere to.

Thanks! I hate spelling incorrectly.

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26-08-2012, 07:34 PM
RE: How can the universe be uncaused?
(26-08-2012 07:32 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  
(26-08-2012 07:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  

Thanks! I hate spelling incorrectly.

No problem. Just trying to be obnoxiously helpful. Thumbsup

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
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26-08-2012, 08:02 PM
RE: How can the universe be uncaused?
(26-08-2012 07:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  Just trying to be obnoxiously helpful. Thumbsup

One outta two ain't that bad I suppose. Wink

You have just begun reading the sentence you have just finished reading.
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26-08-2012, 08:17 PM (This post was last modified: 28-08-2012 03:21 PM by Thomas.)
RE: How can the universe be uncaused?
(22-08-2012 02:39 PM)TrueReason Wrote:  ...how you would explain the universe came to be and why something that is not part of the physical universe is unnecessary.

It kind of goes like this:

Atheist, "What a beautiful tree"
Theist, "How do you think it came into being?"
Atheist, "It grew from a seed?"
Theist, "God created it"
Atheist, "How do you know that?"
Theist, "Because God created all things."
Atheist, "How do you know that?"
Theist, "Well, if God didn't create it, who did?"
Atheist, "Evolution?"
Theist, "That's just a theory. I know in my heart that God is real and created all things."
Atheist, "What evidence do you have to support your beliefs?"
Theist, "Faith".

...and that's why you just never bother to reason with the theist.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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