How can you tell the difference between reality and delusions?
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13-06-2017, 02:00 PM
RE: How can you tell the difference between reality and delusions?
Grieving can make you delusional. Your brain keeps calling something up that is not there anymore, sometimes quite vividly. It then gets dismissed until the next time it comes up. Eventually the brain won't go there anymore - the connections to events, scents, visual clues and feelings will fade over time.

But for a time grieving can be quite physical, it can be a physical pain, it can be that you can "feel" someone there who isn't anymore. That is delusional, and a lot of people who grieve heavily think they are going nuts. There is a lack of control over the process.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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13-06-2017, 02:05 PM
RE: How can you tell the difference between reality and delusions?
(13-06-2017 01:55 PM)Dr H Wrote:  "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

I stopped believing in religion ages ago. Why is the vile thing still here? Dodgy

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderĂ²."
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13-06-2017, 04:32 PM
RE: How can you tell the difference between reality and delusions?
(13-06-2017 02:05 PM)Vera Wrote:  
(13-06-2017 01:55 PM)Dr H Wrote:  "Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

I stopped believing in religion ages ago. Why is the vile thing still here? Dodgy




Don't let those gnomes and their illusions get you down. They're just gnomes and illusions.

--Jake the Dog, Adventure Time

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13-06-2017, 06:56 PM
RE: How can you tell the difference between reality and delusions?
the problem is that it's probably not a delusion for most people. Its a illusion. illusion meaning that the reality of the situation is just different then they think it is. The delusion that i see is that one side claims the real truth, clarity, and understanding.

small Religion, isn't a problem. That's why i can't be anti-religion. big religion is a big problem. Just like big companies, mega sports, and over reaching government. So its an illusion that its all religion. The reality is that its people.
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13-06-2017, 06:56 PM
RE: How can you tell the difference between reality and delusions?
[quote='AB517' pid='1199539' dateline='1497401773']
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13-06-2017, 08:55 PM
RE: How can you tell the difference between reality and delusions?
It depends on what you mean by a delusion. Being in error about something that is in doubt, like God, isn't the same thing as the clinical definition of delusion. I have schizoaffective disorder, which is a sort of cross between schizophrenia and manic depression. I suffered delusions from an early age. I knew that the beliefs in question would be considered delusional by others, but to me they were true. So even knowing that my reality didn't agree with other people's reality didn't help me to disbelieve the delusion. After I got on anti-psychotic medication, my "investment" in these beliefs slowly weakened over time. I can still think about the thoughts that made up my delusions, but they no longer have the power to draw me in. But that's just one woman's experience. I don't know if others experience their delusions similarly or not. But I think there's a big difference between capital 'D' delusions like I had, and what people loosely call delusions like belief in God. I don't consider that a delusion.
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14-06-2017, 12:52 AM (This post was last modified: 14-06-2017 12:56 AM by true scotsman.)
RE: How can you tell the difference between reality and delusions?
(13-06-2017 01:49 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  
(13-06-2017 10:49 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Generally speaking, if I'm perceiving something then it is real.

What about mirages, hallucinations, dreams, magician's illusions, etc.? All of these things are perceived as real by the person experiencing them at the time of said experience. I think that's the point of the OP's question. You can't always trust your perceptions, so how do you know when you can and when you can't?
These are not problems with perception but of identification. In the case of mirages, the senses are perceiving just fine. In each case it is a problem with identification. I remember I used to go down to North Carolina every other weekend with my grandmother. I would see the mirages on the road and I mistakenly identified them as puddles. I thought it must have just rained and the puddles just were evaporating before we reached them. Now I was only 7 or 8 years old at the time but I eventually came to the conclusion that something else was going on. I knew that it hadn't rained because the sky was clear and I surmised that if they really were puddles then at least one of them would be big enough to last long enough for us to reach it. I finally asked and she explained it to me. I remember this to this day vividly as one of the first instances that I started having confidence in my abilities to think. I was actually proud that I had figured out on my own that something strange was going on and had already come to the conclusion that they weren't puddles but something else. It was a problem of identification not perception and my senses and reasoning mind were also instrumental in solving the problem, thus I learned something about not just accepting things at first glance. It was my attempt to integrate what I was seeing with what I knew about rain and puddles and weather that led me to discover what was really going on.

I've also had some very vivid hallucinations due to a reaction to antibiotics. I saw the grim reaper standing in the doorway to my room and objects around the room were talking to me. In my addled state I was still able to identify what I was seeing as hallucinations and surmised that I was having a reaction to the drugs I was on. I came to this conclusion again through the process of integration. I couldn't integrate what I was experiencing with my other knowledge and so I instantly knew something was wrong. I never for a minute thought that what I was experiencing was real. Hallucination is not perception. There's no object there to be perceived in the first place.

We can rely on our senses 100% percent of the time to bring us awareness of objects within their range and in accordance with their nature. We can't rely on them to bring us awareness of things in the ultraviolet spectrum. We can't rely on them to perceive gamma rays. We can't rely on them at all to identify things. That's the job of the reasoning faculty. We can rely on our senses 100% to be limited in their abilities and it is through those very same senses and reason that we discover what their nature is, how they work and what their limitations are.

In the case of magic, the magician is actively trying to trick us and he or she knows the limitations of the senses and reason and knows how to exploit them. They study long and hard to be able to do it and that is one of the things that makes a magic show so fun, trying to figure out how they do it because we know that it is not actually magic. If we can investigate and watch how they do it we can then identify the trick.

Dreams are not perceptions. They are the subconscious mind creating images from things we have perceived.

It is the failure to recognize the distinction between the perceptual level of consciousness and the conceptual that leads to the belief that we can not rely on our senses. It's easy to see why too. We automatize these processes and perceiving and identifying what we perceives happens so fast that it can seem like it is our senses that are doing the identification.

Two years ago I was driving home about 8:30 PM when to the east out of the corner of my eye I saw a huge orange light in the sky. I turned to look and my first thought was to ask why the sun was rising at 8:30 at night but this could not be integrated with my knowledge of the sun so that was thrown out. This happened over maybe half a second. My next action was to say out loud to my son, what the hell is that? We watched as this thing, which looked like one of those paper crowns from burger king, only glowing a brilliant orange the color of flame, slowly moved southward and then zipped away faster than the eye could follow. What I was perceiving was really there, it was my identification that was faulty. We saw the thing two more times over the next several days but never figured out what it was. I just have to say "I don't know".

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14-06-2017, 04:40 AM
RE: How can you tell the difference between reality and delusions?
(14-06-2017 12:52 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Dreams are not perceptions. They are the subconscious mind creating images from things we have perceived.

I disagree with you on this point. I would say dreams are much more like misidentifications of perceptions, since our brains are disabled during sleep by deactivation of our critical abilities and orienting senses and memories. We are misperceiving where we are and what we are doing when we are actually in bed with our eyes closed.

How does the fact that we lack the wherewithal to properly identify our experiences while dreaming (or mentally disabled) impact your theory?
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14-06-2017, 01:08 PM (This post was last modified: 14-06-2017 01:12 PM by true scotsman.)
RE: How can you tell the difference between reality and delusions?
(14-06-2017 04:40 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(14-06-2017 12:52 AM)true scotsman Wrote:  Dreams are not perceptions. They are the subconscious mind creating images from things we have perceived.

I disagree with you on this point. I would say dreams are much more like misidentifications of perceptions, since our brains are disabled during sleep by deactivation of our critical abilities and orienting senses and memories. We are misperceiving where we are and what we are doing when we are actually in bed with our eyes closed.

How does the fact that we lack the wherewithal to properly identify our experiences while dreaming (or mentally disabled) impact your theory?

I misspoke. When we dream we are perceiving, but what we perceive is our own conscious activity. Just as when we look inwards to our imagination, when we dream the thing we are perceiving is the actions of the faculty that is responsible for dreams. We don't identify the various elements of the dream beacause we have already perceived and identified these things. if we hadn't, then they would not be available as material for the subconscious or whatever it is that produces dreams. When we imagine what we are doing is rearranging our perceptions and conceptual identifications into new and fanciful combinations that don't exist in reality. Same with dreaming, only imagining is volitional. Dreaming is to some extent as well. Sometimes I'm able to recognize that I'm dreaming and then it is really fun because I can have a certain amount of control of what I dream. But not always.

Are you familiar with the notion of secondary objectivity. That's what our conscious activity is, a secondary object. Our consciousness must have some content already in it before we can observe our own conscious activity. We observe our mind perceiving, forming concepts, imagining, dreaming, desiring, making inferences, etc., as a secondary object. Before we could observe our own mind engaged in these activities, our mind must have performed these activities.

So when we dream, it is the act of dreaming that we perceive and identify. I don't know about you but I don't have any trouble at all distinguishing between dreaming and reality. Sometimes this causes me some disappointment, especially when I dream that I have won the lottery and upon waking, realize it isn't real. Of course I've had an understanding of metaphysical primacy for so long now that distinguishing between the real and imaginary is automatic for me.

So the fact that we can't always identify our dreams as dreams while we are asleep is not a problem for my theory because sleeping is only temporary and as soon as we wake we are able to make the distinction easily.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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14-06-2017, 01:30 PM
RE: How can you tell the difference between reality and delusions?
(14-06-2017 01:08 PM)true scotsman Wrote:  
(14-06-2017 04:40 AM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  I disagree with you on this point. I would say dreams are much more like misidentifications of perceptions, since our brains are disabled during sleep by deactivation of our critical abilities and orienting senses and memories. We are misperceiving where we are and what we are doing when we are actually in bed with our eyes closed.

How does the fact that we lack the wherewithal to properly identify our experiences while dreaming (or mentally disabled) impact your theory?

I misspoke. When we dream we are perceiving, but what we perceive is our own conscious activity. Just as when we look inwards to our imagination, when we dream the thing we are perceiving is the actions of the faculty that is responsible for dreams. We don't identify the various elements of the dream beacause we have already perceived and identified these things. if we hadn't, then they would not be available as material for the subconscious or whatever it is that produces dreams. When we imagine what we are doing is rearranging our perceptions and conceptual identifications into new and fanciful combinations that don't exist in reality. Same with dreaming, only imagining is volitional. Dreaming is to some extent as well. Sometimes I'm able to recognize that I'm dreaming and then it is really fun because I can have a certain amount of control of what I dream. But not always.

Are you familiar with the notion of secondary objectivity. That's what our conscious activity is, a secondary object. Our consciousness must have some content already in it before we can observe our own conscious activity. We observe our mind perceiving, forming concepts, imagining, dreaming, desiring, making inferences, etc., as a secondary object. Before we could observe our own mind engaged in these activities, our mind must have performed these activities. This is why the notion of a consciousness conscious only of itself is absurd. It commits the fallacy of pure self-referrence. This is what the notion of God reduces to because it is said to have created all its objects distinct from itself and it it is imagined as pure consciousness. Before it had created these objects it had nothing to be conscious of but its own objectless consciousness. Before it was conscious of some object distinct from itself it hadn't performed any conscious activity, had no content to perform any activity on, and thus could not be aware of itself. This is an insurmountable problem for the theist as far as I can see. Consciousness is dependent on existence and not the other way around, as they claim.

So when we dream, it is the act of dreaming that we perceive and identify. I don't know about you but I don't have any trouble at all distinguishing between dreaming and reality. Sometimes this causes me some disappointment, especially when I dream that I have won the lottery and upon waking, realize it isn't real. Of course I've had an understanding of metaphysical primacy for so long now that distinguishing between the real and imaginary is automatic for me.

So the fact that we can't always identify our dreams as dreams while we are asleep is not a problem for my theory because sleeping is only temporary and as soon as we wake we are able to make the distinction easily.

Do not lose your knowledge that man's proper estate is an upright posture, an intransigent mind and a step that travels unlimited roads. - Ayn Rand.

Don't sacrifice for me, live for yourself! - Me

The only alternative to Objectivism is some form of Subjectivism. - Dawson Bethrick
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