How come I'm not an atheist?
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20-05-2017, 03:15 PM
RE: How come I'm not an atheist?
(20-05-2017 06:46 AM)SYZ Wrote:  One can't say a woman is nearly pregnant, or partially pregnant, or fully pregnant; same sort of thing.

There's no such thing as an "agnostic atheist". People who describe themselves thusly are in fact agnostics—even if they don't acknowledge it.
One either believes, or not ... but that is just one's belief position. It is not one's knowledge claim. Agnosticism is about knowledge, not belief.

What keeps tripping folks like you up is that there's no practical, pragmatic, functional difference in how you conduct yourself in the world between someone who understands that invisible beings and realms are non-falsifiable, yet sees no valid reason to believe that such things exist -- and someone who claims to know for a fact that there are no gods, in addition to seeing no valid reason to believe in them.

It is a nuanced philosophical distinction, and there's an argument some folks make that it's a distinction without a difference. However, I avoid the semantic shortcut of declaring "there is no god" rather than just saying "there's no basis to believe there's a god" -- because it short-circuits the common theist trope that atheists are arrogant and making unsupportable knowledge claims.
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20-05-2017, 06:11 PM
RE: How come I'm not an atheist?
you guys forget about the evidence based belief and quiver over nothing instead of the best answers we can have. Some people aren't in the game for the best answers we can do, are they?
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21-05-2017, 12:48 AM
RE: How come I'm not an atheist?
There is a woman named June who lives somewhere and she either is pregnant or she's not.

I don't personally know June. I've never met her.

I have not been presented with any evidence to show that she is pregnant. I have no reason to believe she is pregnant. In addition to that, I also don't KNOW if she is pregnant.

Two statements that exist at the same time.
I don't believe she is pregnant, (due to insufficient evidence) and...
I don't know if she is pregnant.

Now let's say, I do finally meet June and she has a small baby bump. She shows me a pregnancy test she took that has a positive test result and a doctor's​ initial tests show that her body exhibits all the medical signs of pregnancy. Plus she is glowing and very excited to have her first child.

Becoming pregnant is a normal thing that can happen to women. I really don't need a lot of evidence to support a belief, but as it happens, she has shown me a fair amount of evidence to give me a high degree of belief. (99%)

But, I still don't know if she really is pregnant.
There is a very very small chance that she could be experiencing a false pregnancy.

Evidence supports belief and with a large amount of evidence we can push that belief into a realm we call knowledge.

So, you can be agnostic atheist because you can, at the same time, not know something and not believe based on insufficient evidence

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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21-05-2017, 08:57 AM
RE: How come I'm not an atheist?
(21-05-2017 12:48 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  But, I still don't know if she really is pregnant.
There is a very very small chance that she could be experiencing a false pregnancy.

I test positive on a pregnancy test when I'm taking hCG. Smile

#sigh
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21-05-2017, 09:01 AM
RE: How come I'm not an atheist?
You should talk to Kingschosen. He has experience with this Drinking Beverage

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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21-05-2017, 10:22 AM
RE: How come I'm not an atheist?
(21-05-2017 08:57 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(21-05-2017 12:48 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  But, I still don't know if she really is pregnant.
There is a very very small chance that she could be experiencing a false pregnancy.

I test positive on a pregnancy test when I'm taking hCG. Smile
Some testicular tumors can cause a man to have a positive pregnancy test.
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23-05-2017, 04:25 PM
RE: How come I'm not an atheist?
(20-05-2017 02:36 AM)Glossophile Wrote:  Now, let's talk about agnosticism versus atheism. The key distinction here, I think, is between saying "I don't believe that a god exists" and saying "I believe that no god exists," but in a sense, we may be guilty of special pleading.

The key distinction is between saying "I don't believe any god exists", and "I can't know whether any god exists".

The two are not mutually exclusive.

One can lack belief in gods and still believe that there may, someday, be a way know for certain that god does not exist.
That would be a gnostic atheist.

Or, one may lack belief in gods and believe that it is impossible for them to ever know whether a god exists or not.
That would be an agnostic atheist.

--
Dr H

"So, I became an anarchist, and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."
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23-05-2017, 06:26 PM
RE: How come I'm not an atheist?
I may have already answered in this, I forget. However I feel like writing this so I will.

Answer to the OP. Because you are stupid....

No I'm kidding, there's a lot of reasons why you might not be an Atheist and stupid really isn't one of them, despite how personally sometimes I FEEL like theists are stupid. ANYONE can be brainwashed I know this, intellect doesn't automatically protect you from being brainwashed, or manipulated.

One thing I HAVE found however is most dogmatic ideologies (both political and religious) gain a great deal of power over people who think less and feel more. AKA people who value emotions over facts and reason. This isn't some guarantee, it's just an anecdotal trend I have noticed, take it for what it's worth. I've also noticed that people who prefer feelings over reason get very offended at the mere suggestion that their feelings, while being valid feelings to have, aren't always right and don't always result in the correct or optimal outcome. Thinking is important and those who don't want to think will always fall prey to bad, manipulative, dangerous ideologies. BUT you're not alone the Milgram experiment is one of many that show's just how easy it is for MOST people to fall prey to monsters like Hitler, or Christianity, Or Social Justice Theory (I rank all of these about on par with each other in regards to bad poorly thought out ideas founded on lies and misinformation and use dishonest emotional pleas to win over their victims). There are many way's to manipulate a person, however the Milgram experiment apply to authority and all 3 of my examples use the perception of authority to do what they do, from Governmental Authority, to a socially acceptable "Spiritual" Authority, to a pseudoscience professor (aka gender studies professors ect and social "sciences" that do not properly apply the scientific method and are therefor NOT science). These are my personal views of course, however I came to these positions after much consideration I would recommend you think things through for yourself. I didn't come to my conclusions lightly and I don't think you should either.

(Side note, a lot of people had an emotional negative reaction to the Milgram experiments *AFTER they were done they freaked out at realizing what they had done, and felt mad because they were tricked lol* which is silly, counter productive, wrong, and kinda in a weird way proves some of the points in the experiment. Look just because you would likely have been helping Hitler and an experiment can demonstrate this, doesn't mean the correct response is to lash out with blind misplaced emotions. You should reflect on this and find out WHY you are such an easy to control sheep that does whatever a perceived authority figure tells you. I'm well aware few people are naturally as anti authoritarian as myself, however being anti authoritarian has only caused problems in my life, I respect myself more for my values, but I can't deny people expect me to be a brainless sheep and treat me poorly cause I don't act the way they expect and desire.

One final note, IF you are incapable of coming to godlessness without a plea to emotion, I would personally prefer you retain whatever silly idea you have. I wouldn't want you to leave your faith based dogmatic ideology founded on lies and misinformation to fall prey to some other equally dangerous faith based dogmatic ideology founded on lies and misinformation.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
Big Grin
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23-05-2017, 06:32 PM (This post was last modified: 23-05-2017 06:35 PM by JesseB.)
RE: How come I'm not an atheist?
(23-05-2017 04:25 PM)Dr H Wrote:  
(20-05-2017 02:36 AM)Glossophile Wrote:  Now, let's talk about agnosticism versus atheism. The key distinction here, I think, is between saying "I don't believe that a god exists" and saying "I believe that no god exists," but in a sense, we may be guilty of special pleading.

The key distinction is between saying "I don't believe any god exists", and "I can't know whether any god exists".

The two are not mutually exclusive.

One can lack belief in gods and still believe that there may, someday, be a way know for certain that god does not exist.
That would be a gnostic atheist.

Or, one may lack belief in gods and believe that it is impossible for them to ever know whether a god exists or not.
That would be an agnostic atheist.

I lack a belief in a god or gods, I also have no fucking clue if such a thing COULD be known to anyone, I am confident it is NOT known to anyone.

However I'm kinda ok saying there's no god, not because I "Believe" there is no god, but because it's such an unlikely thing in my mind that it's silly to organize your life on the 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000001% chance it could be true. That said if you ask me if I KNOW there is no god, of course I don't and no one else knows any more about this than I do (that is to say none of us know shit). It's not that I believe it, it's that there's NO evidence to suggest otherwise and from a pragmatic standpoint it doesn't fucking matter if there is a god, no god is talking to you or changing your life or gives a damn about you regardless so move on and live your fucking life, it's the only one you got after all.

So no. There's no god, get the fuck over it grow up and move on (to any theist reading this). That's my personal statement and NOT some "official" atheist position (as explained above on how this works)

(my point is people hyper focusing on this trying to redefine the word atheism to suit their straw-men arguments need to pull their heads out of their asses. And quite misrepresenting what the definition of atheism is, even if an atheist says there is no god that doesn't redefine atheism. GROW THE FUCK UP, or at least grow a brain cell or two)

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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