How could Putin lose?
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21-07-2017, 06:47 AM (This post was last modified: 21-07-2017 06:53 AM by Deesse23.)
RE: How could Putin lose?
(21-07-2017 04:33 AM)Ron NL-S Wrote:  
(21-07-2017 03:42 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  What are you talking about? Huh

Does the term "refugees" ring any bells?
Ok, tidal wave was a strong description. Leave the "tidal" out , then. Yet we still are facing an increasingly unpleasant presence of islam in our everyday lives. Rising numbers of muslims, failing integration, rising extremism, rising threat of violence. Resulting in a rising sense of insecurity, anger and racism/anti islam sentiments with the indigenous people.

See, thats why i was asking. "tidal wave" is suggesting someone is about to drown. Who is drowing and in what? Europe... in Muslims? ROFLMAO

And yes, the second and more important part, and the fact that you didnt get it at first is a strong hint that you already have been caught by the fearmongers. So ill repeat again:

"A tidal wave of muslims". Millions of people trying to enter Europe from northern Africa and the Levant, and you know that they are all (or mostly) religious, how exactly? I am not denying that there is a problem, and its about immogration and asylum seeking, but pleeeaaaasse spare me the fearmongering wording bullshit. All it gives away to me is there are people with agendas i have to watch, watch much more closely than any muslim immigrant and asylum seeker..

Ill give you an example:
these days i talked to a co worker across my desk, after a "sanitary engineer" tried to fix something for us. The guy hardly spoke any german. My co worker then pushed me into a conversation starting with
"ah, you see, THATS the problem"
Me: "what?"
He:"Immigrants unwilling to integrate. He hardly spoke any german"
Me:"Ok, his german sucked, and you know he doesnt want to learn german, how exactly?"
He:"Well, ok i dont know. But you know, many of these people dont speak proper german, and what i really meant its because they are stupid, not necessarily because they dont want to speak german."
Me (thinking hes is starting to backpedal):"Are you suggesting *he is more stupid than we because of x*, in terms of x being religion or race, or...just being non-german".
He (backpedaling even more):"Oh, no nononono. You got me wrong, they arent stupid, they are just uneducated."
Me: "Ohh, all foreigners are uneducated. And you know that how exactly?" (what he didnt know but know, another woman of the room cleaning service has something like Phd in math in her country of origin, but its not accepted here for some reason. Something you come across every now and then with immigrants from totally different parts of the world).
He: "Oh, well, most of em are, they are from countries with bad edcation:"

Me (starting to be pissed off ROYALLY):
Quote:Listen, dude, you are from former eastern germany, im from the west. In 1989 when the wall fell you were one of the stupid uneducated *foreigners* from evil commie eastern block Germany" who flooded the west, and because of whom i am still paying a certain tax (called "Soli"). Thats one of the reasons the unemploymets was so high there to begin with after the wall (and it still is), because you were oh so fucking useless. So, please spare me your bulllshit arguments about *us* being so superior to some *others*. Particularly when they are about discriminating against groups of people you would have belonged to 20y ago yourself if i had used your logic back then. Look, you are a good colleage and engineer and i like you, but you need to get rid of that egoisitc *i got mine, fuck you all* bullshit (which he continued earlier in the discussion)

Im not saying you are like this guy, but just that short statement of yours reminded me how deep this bullshit already has sunken into people and they dont even realized it anymore. Thats why its so sinister.

Quote:unpleasant presence of islam
I could ask again, but ill take the short route: I dont give a fuck what bullshit they (or or anyone else) believe in. What i do care about is discrimination and violence and stuff like this.
Thats why i dont give a fuck about the presence of islam, but rather about its (admittedly quite probable) effects. I however i am not willing to throw out the baby with the bath water.

Ceterum censeo, religionem delendam esse
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21-07-2017, 10:01 AM
RE: How could Putin lose?
(21-07-2017 04:47 AM)abaris

Are you from Europe or are you just drinking the kool aid or rightwing propaganda?

[quote='Ron NL-S Wrote:  
Does the term "refugees" ring any bells?

Sorry, still ridiculous rightwing talking point.

[/quote]

Slapping me in the face with the "rightwing propaganda"-card hardly makes you a debate partner I would take seriously. Tough luck, mate. I'm not susceptible to that. What's next? Shouting me down and calling me names?
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21-07-2017, 10:03 AM
RE: How could Putin lose?
(21-07-2017 05:25 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Who is this we? What I'm facing is fear mongering used to enact authoritarian measures (Poland anti terrorist bill) and campaign of fear resulting in Poles being so afraid of refugees that they would sooner leave EU than accept them.

Maybe that rising sense of insecurity has something to do with right wing scare tactics? Or maybe refugees are convenient scapegoat who allow politicians hide real problem behind wave of nationalist sentiments? Maybe it's easier to attack "tidal wave" of refugees than say something about economy?

Sure, it's about USA but it should tell you something about role of media in overplaying threat posed by refugees.

Point taken.
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21-07-2017, 10:04 AM
RE: How could Putin lose?
(21-07-2017 06:47 AM)Deesse23 Wrote:  And yes, the second and more important part, and the fact that you didnt get it at first is a strong hint that you already have been caught by the fearmongers. So ill repeat again:

"A tidal wave of muslims". Millions of people trying to enter Europe from northern Africa and the Levant, and you know that they are all (or mostly) religious, how exactly? I am not denying that there is a problem, and its about immogration and asylum seeking, but pleeeaaaasse spare me the fearmongering wording bullshit. All it gives away to me is there are people with agendas i have to watch, watch much more closely than any muslim immigrant and asylum seeker..

Im not saying you are like this guy, but just that short statement of yours reminded me how deep this bullshit already has sunken into people and they dont even realized it anymore. Thats why its so sinister.

Quote:unpleasant presence of islam
I could ask again, but ill take the short route: I dont give a fuck what bullshit they (or or anyone else) believe in. What i do care about is discrimination and violence and stuff like this.
Thats why i dont give a fuck about the presence of islam, but rather about its (admittedly quite probable) effects. I however i am not willing to throw out the baby with the bath water.

Hmm, you might be onto something here.
Time for me to chose my words more carefully and do more homework. Question then is what are reliable sources??
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21-07-2017, 10:08 AM
RE: How could Putin lose?
(21-07-2017 10:04 AM)Ron NL-S Wrote:  Question then is what are reliable sources??

Europol statistics for a start. Reputable papers instead of tabloids. Certainly not Geert Wilders, if I understand the NL in your alias correctly.

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21-07-2017, 11:24 AM
RE: How could Putin lose?
(20-07-2017 03:49 PM)Ron NL-S Wrote:  You folks probably still think of the US as the guardian of the world, bringing democracy, peace and prosperity.

Here, why don't you read this study by Pew and return to this conversation armed with a little knowledge rather than preconceived notions and baseless generalizations?
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21-07-2017, 11:39 AM
RE: How could Putin lose?
(20-07-2017 03:49 PM)Ron NL-S Wrote:  You folks probably still think of the US as the guardian of the world, bringing democracy, peace and prosperity.

Majority of Poles indeed saw* USA in more than positive light but I doubt that "you folks" was directed at them. I see USA as a country with quite long list of problems (drug policy, incarceration rates, creationism) and from what I see other forum users don't see States as a paradise.

Also your comment is quite arrogant. Suggesting that you're only one enlightened will not help you here.

Quote:Well, the last time that happened was in 44-45, but after that the US has grown into the neighbourhood bully, especially in recent decades.

USA as many other powerful** countries has quite a long list of misdeeds, one could say that it was a bully before WWII end. Check Chalmers Johnson Blowback series.

*Data from 2016
**Not only powerful. One did not need to dig into Poland past to see horrific crimes.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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21-07-2017, 12:13 PM
RE: How could Putin lose?
(21-07-2017 11:39 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Majority of Poles indeed saw* USA in more than positive light but I doubt that "you folks" was directed at them. I see USA as a country with quite long list of problems (drug policy, incarceration rates, creationism) and from what I see other forum users don't see States as a paradise.

I make a distinction between the policy of the USA and the people. The people usually poll very liberal on social issues as well as politics. The political decisions however don't mirror the popular sentiments.

I view the US foreign policy in the same light as Russias or Chinas. All based on national interests. Or, even worse, all based on the interests of a very select audience that actually makes a profit by the constant interventions. The population at large doesn't profit at all.

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21-07-2017, 01:58 PM
RE: How could Putin lose?
(20-07-2017 03:49 PM)Ron NL-S Wrote:  You folks probably still think of the US as the guardian of the world, bringing democracy, peace and prosperity.

The USA, more than many other country, is a deeply has a lot of idiosyncrasies and self contradiction. There is no doubt that the USA wants to be a bringer of democracy, peace and prosperity. That's how they want to be seen and remembered as in History. Ironically, their massive influence since the end of WWI has indeed massively helped to make Europe largely democratic, ushered an area of scientific and economical development unseen before and we now sit in the most peaceful time of humanity all thanks to the might of this country, the international organisation it supports and its vast network of alliances.

In the contradiction section, it has used proxy war to assert its dominance, financed and established corrupt, violent and inept dictatorship in numerous area of the world even over the ashes of democracies when they feared they would aligned themselves with enemies or hurt their interests. Like all imperialist country it has used those tools, condemned millions to war and poverty. Within its borders, the USA is also struggling to vanquish its demons of religious bigotry, racism and sexism.

It's a complicated country with a lots of blood on its hands, but that brought lots of hope to humanity too. As far as I can see, I don't have a special love for the USA and I personnaly despise its most conservative streaks, but I trust them more to produce a more benevolent hegemony than Russia or China who have an even worst record on human rights than the US. Its a lesser of all evil situation. I trust that Americans will ''improve'' themselves faster and further than the two other who start from further away.

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21-07-2017, 02:09 PM
RE: How could Putin lose?
(21-07-2017 01:58 PM)epronovost Wrote:  There is no doubt that the USA wants to be a bringer of democracy, peace and prosperity.

The people want to see themselves that way. This sentiment is abused by politics which has no such goals.

That's why it's that important to make a distinction between people and politics.

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