How could Putin lose?
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21-07-2017, 02:17 PM
RE: How could Putin lose?
(21-07-2017 02:09 PM)abaris Wrote:  This sentiment is abused by politics which has no such goals.

While I generally agree with all you said, one must be careful with such a statement. Politics are also people. They have hero fantasies too. When they launched war in Iraq, I think that many politics genuinly believed they were going to make it. They were going to make Iraq a democracy and be heroes in histroy. Of course nothing like that happen and Iraq is complete mess. Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity. Most of the ''evil'' on this planet isn't due to malice, but to a mix of ignorance, lack of forethought, naivity, fear and frustration.

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21-07-2017, 02:22 PM
RE: How could Putin lose?
(21-07-2017 02:17 PM)epronovost Wrote:  When they launched war in Iraq, I think that many politics genuinly believed they were going to make it.

Yeah, which was an unbelievable sentiment right from the get go. Everyone with at least a shred of Middle Eastern knowledge could see the disaster in the making.

I remember saying to one Bush defender back then, back before the invasion even started, it will be easy in, but it's won't be easy out.

That's what I said on fearbush.com back in 2002. Sadly long gone, otherwise I could look up my quote. I'm a historian and not into political sciences, but it was obvious to me and many others that this invasion was born out of sheer idiocy.

And in Cheney's case I don't even buy the good intentions.

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21-07-2017, 03:21 PM
RE: How could Putin lose?
(21-07-2017 11:39 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  I see USA as a country with quite long list of problems (drug policy, incarceration rates, creationism)

You forgot a few.... genocide, creating and aiding terrorist organisations, toppling non-compliant governments, plunging entire countries into chaos, destabilising entire regions, instigating civil wars, aiding or installing human right violating regimes, drug trafficking on a massive scale and last but not least war crimes. I am pretty sure I left a few out, too. I think pretty much every country in the Middle East, central and east Asia and central and/or south America might agree.
Or would you consider those non-relevant? Naturally all because of national interest and security.

The US the lesser of evils? I seriously doubt it! Look at what the US has caused in terms of suffering, death, destruction in the brief history since...let's say 1945. Compare that to any other nation you deem fit. Want to expand the timeline? Sure, be my guest...
Here's a neat site that tracks today's conflicts. Shall we play a game and see in how many of those the US is involved, directly or indirectly, by fighting, arming, supplying or training opposing forces? And Russia? China? conflict tracker

Oh and you're going to love this one;
the-239-year-timeline-of-americas-involvement-in-military-conflict
You might notice that after roughly 1900 the conflicts loose the nature of local conflict and become global. Compare that to say the Soviet Union's or China's....

Here's a bit back ground info on US covert ops.
I googled a little "US covert operations globally since 1945"
The first hits;
http://www.globalsecurity.org
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com

Face it, the US is a nation of war, aggression and violence. Globally and domestically. Your war budget is bigger than those of China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, India, France, the UK, Japan AND Germany combined! You seem to like links a lot. Here's another one; US defense spending
Too bad I could not find a suitable link showing gun related violence in relation to gun ownership per head of the population.

And yet.... still the US points at Putin, claiming he's the bad guy....
Or those blasted Chinese..... Or Iran.... or....

I admit, none of those countries would make a friendly neighbour.... at all!
But your country/government takes the cake.
But I have this funny feeling that is not really mentioned in your history books at school, is it?

Unfortunately I can not give you a full bibliography of the books regarding military history and (geo)politics I read over the years, but let me assure you the list is long.

(21-07-2017 11:39 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Also your comment is quite arrogant. Suggesting that you're only one enlightened will not help you here.

But if I am the arrogant one, I have this feeling I am in pretty good company, wouldn't you say?

Me enlightened? Hell no. I am just a dumb farmer wannabe trying to make sense of this mad world. And I am not doing a hell of a job at it either.
What was it you think I need help with?
Or might it not just be me, who sees the world through a coloured keyhole.
Maybe I even did address some sensitive or uncomfortable issues? Threatening someone's bubble?

May I suggest to look around you in the real world and wonder why it is that so many nations and/or people seem to have taken to not liking you lot all that much these days.... I am not talking puppet governments or power/dollar hungry dictators, politicians and related scum. Maybe you might learn something too.

Just as I did when the fear mongering against muslims was pointed out, albeit that I still am not quite at ease. Figures and stats are easily manipulated. But I keep looking into it.

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21-07-2017, 04:50 PM (This post was last modified: 21-07-2017 05:00 PM by Szuchow.)
RE: How could Putin lose?
(21-07-2017 03:21 PM)Ron NL-S Wrote:  You forgot a few....

I choose not to write more. You do realize that list of USA misdeeds isn't hidden in some highly secured vault and therefore knowledge of them is far from uncommon? So your little tirade was pointless.

Quote:The US the lesser of evils? I seriously doubt it!

You're free to doubt it given that I didn't speak about such.

Quote:Look at what the US has caused in terms of suffering, death, destruction in the brief history since...let's say 1945. Compare that to any other nation you deem fit. Want to expand the timeline? Sure, be my guest...

USSR would be pretty nice contender even if it's most destructive actions were taken before that date. Mao China also don't look shabby with it's millions of victims.

Quote:Here's a neat site that tracks today's conflicts. Shall we play a game and see in how many of those the US is involved, directly or indirectly, by fighting, arming, supplying or training opposing forces? And Russia? China? conflict tracker

Oh and you're going to love this one;
the-239-year-timeline-of-americas-involvement-in-military-conflict
You might notice that after roughly 1900 the conflicts loose the nature of local conflict and become global. Compare that to say the Soviet Union's or China's....

Here's a bit back ground info on US covert ops.
I googled a little "US covert operations globally since 1945"
The first hits;
http://www.globalsecurity.org
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com

So, you're capable of using Google to do more than basic search. Congratulations. It's no small feat. Drinking Beverage

But what that was supposed to show? That USA isn't shining beacon of hope and progress? Guess what? I already know it even if I care little for this particular country history.

Quote:Face it, the US is a nation of war, aggression and violence. Globally and domestically. Your war budget is bigger than those of China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, India, France, the UK, Japan AND Germany combined! You seem to like links a lot. Here's another one; US defense spending
Too bad I could not find a suitable link showing gun related violence in relation to gun ownership per head of the population.

You do realize that you aren't writing to American? Secondly did thought that I may not have rosy view of USA even crossed your mind? Or maybe mentioning Johnson Blowback was too small a clue for you to get?

And yes I like links. Know why? Cause I find that supporting my words with data is good thing to do.

Quote:I admit, none of those countries would make a friendly neighbour.... at all!
But your country/government takes the cake.

I don't like Polish gov much but you're overreacting I think.

Quote:But I have this funny feeling that is not really mentioned in your history books at school, is it?

You know what never fail to amuse me? Newbies who don't take even a while too check with whom they're talking.

I'm not American so indeed my history books didn't bothered much with USA. But using such tone when you're writing to historian is just hilarious. Guess whatever school you attended didn't taught you how to properly interact with strangers. Not to mention checking if they're really citizens of country you seem to have grudge with.

Quote:Unfortunately I can not give you a full bibliography of the books regarding military history and (geo)politics I read over the years, but let me assure you the list is long.

Am I supposed to be impressed by what you wrote above? You read many books? That's cool. You're not only one though.

Clownishly assuming that other side of discussion know less than you or is less skilled in making Google search isn't good way to continue conversation.

Quote:But if I am the arrogant one, I have this feeling I am in pretty good company, wouldn't you say?

So pointing arrogance in your statement make me arrogant? Don't be ridiculous.

Quote:Me enlightened? Hell no. I am just a dumb farmer wannabe trying to make sense of this mad world. And I am not doing a hell of a job at it either.
What was it you think I need help with?

Seems like you need a little humility. Not swallowing propaganda about refugees also would be nice.

Quote:Or might it not just be me, who sees the world through a coloured keyhole.
Maybe I even did address some sensitive or uncomfortable issues? Threatening someone's bubble?

Or maybe you're just clown with high opinion of yourself? Instead of admitting that this statement might seem arrogant You folks probably still think of the US as the guardian of the world, bringing democracy, peace and prosperity you go for long winded tirade about evils of USA in what I deem failed try to impress with your "knowledge".


Quote:May I suggest to look around you in the real world and wonder why it is that so many nations and/or people seem to have taken to not liking you lot all that much these days.... I am not talking puppet governments or power/dollar hungry dictators, politicians and related scum. Maybe you might learn something too.

Share your insights O Wise One. Tell my why Poland isn't liked by other countries except her puppet governments Rolleyes Laugh out load

As for learning - try to learn with citizens of what country you speak before you start with tirades like above. Thanks for the laughs though. Always appreciated.

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21-07-2017, 05:04 PM
RE: How could Putin lose?
(21-07-2017 12:13 PM)abaris Wrote:  I view the US foreign policy in the same light as Russias or Chinas. All based on national interests. Or, even worse, all based on the interests of a very select audience that actually makes a profit by the constant interventions. The population at large doesn't profit at all.

Agreed. Foreign policy in my nation is driven largely by business interests, and the appeal to "spreading democracy" is largely a fig leaf for motives much baser.

Look at Trump. He campaigned in part against Clinton's support for involvement in Syria, but like many other American Presidents was very happy to shoot missiles as a virtue-signal when he saw something he didn't like: "We're against chemical attacks." Great, who can argue with that sentiment? But -- what did those missiles accomplish?
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21-07-2017, 05:10 PM
RE: How could Putin lose?
(21-07-2017 02:17 PM)epronovost Wrote:  
(21-07-2017 02:09 PM)abaris Wrote:  This sentiment is abused by politics which has no such goals.

While I generally agree with all you said, one must be careful with such a statement. Politics are also people. They have hero fantasies too. When they launched war in Iraq, I think that many politics genuinly believed they were going to make it. They were going to make Iraq a democracy and be heroes in histroy. Of course nothing like that happen and Iraq is complete mess. Never attribute to malice what can be attributed to stupidity. Most of the ''evil'' on this planet isn't due to malice, but to a mix of ignorance, lack of forethought, naivity, fear and frustration.

There was also in the upper echelons of the decision-makers a religious streak. Here are some of the images from the PowerPoint briefings to the American National Security Council regarding the 2003 invasion:

[Image: article-1184546-0501FC9A000005DC-154_468x341.jpg]

[Image: article-1184546-0501FCB0000005DC-424_468x339.jpg]

[Image: article-1184546-0501FCA7000005DC-454_468x342.jpg]

[Image: article-1184546-0501FC94000005DC-444_468x340.jpg]

Not that these contradict your point about them wanting to be heroes -- indeed, they may well support it. But at least some of them wanted to be heroes in the eyes of their god, it seems to me.
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21-07-2017, 05:15 PM
RE: How could Putin lose?
(21-07-2017 04:50 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  
Quote:Or might it not just be me, who sees the world through a coloured keyhole.
Maybe I even did address some sensitive or uncomfortable issues? Threatening someone's bubble?

Or maybe you're just clown with high opinion of yourself? Instead of admitting that this statement might seem arrogant You folks probably still think of the US as the guardian of the world, bringing democracy, peace and prosperity you go for long winded tirade about evils of USA in what I deem failed try to impress with your "knowledge".

Notice that he hasn't replied to my earlier post ... and I'm an evil American!
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21-07-2017, 05:20 PM
RE: How could Putin lose?
(21-07-2017 05:15 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  
(21-07-2017 04:50 PM)Szuchow Wrote:  Or maybe you're just clown with high opinion of yourself? Instead of admitting that this statement might seem arrogant You folks probably still think of the US as the guardian of the world, bringing democracy, peace and prosperity you go for long winded tirade about evils of USA in what I deem failed try to impress with your "knowledge".

Notice that he hasn't replied to my earlier post ... and I'm an evil American!

Maybe he didn't saw it?

Maybe it's my style of writing that provokes such tirades? Already BlkFnx asked me if I know who Trotsky was and now we have this gem.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

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22-07-2017, 12:07 AM
RE: How could Putin lose?
(18-07-2017 11:04 AM)epronovost Wrote:  ...
1) Keep Assad in power in a unified Syria.

4) Finance, arm and stabilise numerous dictatorship in Central Asia

6) de-secularisation of the civil society.
...

(20-07-2017 03:05 PM)Reducetarian Wrote:  11) Strengthen Iran

12) Try to establish/maintain relatively high prices for oil ...

I have no problem with these in the short term.

Tongue

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22-07-2017, 04:02 AM
RE: How could Putin lose?
(21-07-2017 03:21 PM)Ron NL-S Wrote:  
(21-07-2017 11:39 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  I see USA as a country with quite long list of problems (drug policy, incarceration rates, creationism)

You forgot a few.... genocide, creating and aiding terrorist organisations, toppling non-compliant governments, plunging entire countries into chaos, destabilising entire regions, instigating civil wars, aiding or installing human right violating regimes, drug trafficking on a massive scale and last but not least war crimes. I am pretty sure I left a few out, too. I think pretty much every country in the Middle East, central and east Asia and central and/or south America might agree.
Or would you consider those non-relevant? Naturally all because of national interest and security.

The US the lesser of evils? I seriously doubt it! Look at what the US has caused in terms of suffering, death, destruction in the brief history since...let's say 1945. Compare that to any other nation you deem fit. Want to expand the timeline? Sure, be my guest...
Here's a neat site that tracks today's conflicts. Shall we play a game and see in how many of those the US is involved, directly or indirectly, by fighting, arming, supplying or training opposing forces? And Russia? China? conflict tracker

Oh and you're going to love this one;
the-239-year-timeline-of-americas-involvement-in-military-conflict
You might notice that after roughly 1900 the conflicts loose the nature of local conflict and become global. Compare that to say the Soviet Union's or China's....

Here's a bit back ground info on US covert ops.
I googled a little "US covert operations globally since 1945"
The first hits;
http://www.globalsecurity.org
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com

Face it, the US is a nation of war, aggression and violence. Globally and domestically. Your war budget is bigger than those of China, Russia, Saudi Arabia, India, France, the UK, Japan AND Germany combined! You seem to like links a lot. Here's another one; US defense spending
Too bad I could not find a suitable link showing gun related violence in relation to gun ownership per head of the population.

And yet.... still the US points at Putin, claiming he's the bad guy....
Or those blasted Chinese..... Or Iran.... or....

I admit, none of those countries would make a friendly neighbour.... at all!
But your country/government takes the cake.
But I have this funny feeling that is not really mentioned in your history books at school, is it?

Unfortunately I can not give you a full bibliography of the books regarding military history and (geo)politics I read over the years, but let me assure you the list is long.

(21-07-2017 11:39 AM)Szuchow Wrote:  Also your comment is quite arrogant. Suggesting that you're only one enlightened will not help you here.

But if I am the arrogant one, I have this feeling I am in pretty good company, wouldn't you say?

Me enlightened? Hell no. I am just a dumb farmer wannabe trying to make sense of this mad world. And I am not doing a hell of a job at it either.
What was it you think I need help with?
Or might it not just be me, who sees the world through a coloured keyhole.
Maybe I even did address some sensitive or uncomfortable issues? Threatening someone's bubble?

May I suggest to look around you in the real world and wonder why it is that so many nations and/or people seem to have taken to not liking you lot all that much these days.... I am not talking puppet governments or power/dollar hungry dictators, politicians and related scum. Maybe you might learn something too.

Just as I did when the fear mongering against muslims was pointed out, albeit that I still am not quite at ease. Figures and stats are easily manipulated. But I keep looking into it.

Drinking Beverage

Have a nice day.

Ah, yes. The "The US did it first, so why look at Russia at all when they do the exact same thing". I guess it should be legal for anybody to abduct, rape, mutilate and eat young men; after all, Jeffery Dahmer did it before anyone else.

Russia bombs Syrian towns, killing dozens of children, and Putin's government reponse to the UN is "The US did it first!", like a crying child in kindergarden.

Oh yeah, there is a bias here. Putin is threatening the sovereignty of several countries close to him, threatening to invade Scandinavina like he's fucking Peter the Great or something. He also turns a blind eye to lynching of sexual and religious minorities, and who knows what his secret police is up to. He also likes to steal huge chunks of his country's profits each yeah, making him one of the richest people in the world, and he's rigged the fragile election system.

How could anyone possibly dislike him?

Face it. The US is bad, but I would rather work with a hypocritical eagle than a psychotic bear. And most of the civilized world agrees with me.

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