How could a god know he's omniscient?
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04-09-2013, 05:38 PM
How could a god know he's omniscient?
How could a god know that there's nothing it didn't know? How could it know it's omniscient instead of omniscient-1?

Is there a common theist answer for this?
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04-09-2013, 05:56 PM
RE: How could a god know he's omniscient?
If we were omniscient, that would, by definition, include knowing it.

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04-09-2013, 06:02 PM
RE: How could a god know he's omniscient?
Interesting question.
What does it mean to "know" something ?
No way to answer that in a non-anthropomorphic way.

"“If oxen and horses and lions had hands and were able to draw with their hands and do the same things as men, horses would draw the shapes of gods to look like horses and oxen would draw them to look like oxen, and each would make the gods bodies have the same shape as they themselves had.” --- Xenophanes

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist and Levitating yogi, CAAT-LY.
Yeah, for verily I say unto thee, and this we know : Jebus no likey that which doth tickle thee unto thy nether regions.

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04-09-2013, 09:16 PM (This post was last modified: 04-09-2013 09:33 PM by DylanC.)
RE: How could a god know he's omniscient?
(04-09-2013 05:56 PM)cjlr Wrote:  If we were omniscient, that would, by definition, include knowing it.

But wouldn't a being who knows everything except 1/100/however many things be indistinguishable from an actually omniscient being if the unknown unknowns were also unknown by anything it knew about (i.e. no people/other species knew about these unknown unknowns either?). I'm trying to see how theists make sense of what seems to me to be a logical impossibility.

Edit for clarity: Is it logically possible to know that there are no unknown unknowns? If not, then how could anything ever claim omniscience? If so....how is that logically possible?
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04-09-2013, 09:18 PM
RE: How could a god know he's omniscient?
(04-09-2013 06:02 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Interesting question.
What does it mean to "know" something ?
No way to answer that in a non-anthropomorphic way.

"“If oxen and horses and lions had hands and were able to draw with their hands and do the same things as men, horses would draw the shapes of gods to look like horses and oxen would draw them to look like oxen, and each would make the gods bodies have the same shape as they themselves had.” --- Xenophanes

I mean, we could even be talking about a being that knows of the existence of everything. The specifics of "know" isn't too important.
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04-09-2013, 09:49 PM
RE: How could a god know he's omniscient?
Knowledge, past present and future.

Past... god has read lots of history books

Present... Omnipresence means god knows everything happening now. Also this covers the past which consists of lots of older 'nows'.

Future... Given a) free will and b) quantum uncertainty stuff...

Omniscience must mean knowing all the possibilities of everything that could happen at all levels of complexity.

It must be very tiring and tedious to be a god.

I reckon there are more interesting nows happening right now in other universes.

That's why gods don't show up much anymore.

Yes

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05-09-2013, 04:57 AM
RE: How could a god know he's omniscient?
I know I love my Gwynnies, but there's a causality to thought. I don't know how much math I know until I get out pencil and paper.

As a prophet, verily I say unto you, these terms are incompatible. Thumbsup

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05-09-2013, 10:03 PM
RE: How could a god know he's omniscient?
(04-09-2013 05:56 PM)cjlr Wrote:  If we were omniscient, that would, by definition, include knowing it.

Pretty much this.

Since we are not omniscient, we are limited in our grasp on judging just exactly how an omniscient being would be certain of its own omniscience. I'm not convinced though that this is a logical contradiction, although even if it is the defense could be made that the entity is not constrained by the rules of human logic, and is not subject to the same principles all other bodies within the universe are, rather existing in a different realm separate from the known one, yet still interacting with it in some form.

Of course, making it a "hands-off" kind of deity just pushes it further into the category of "epistemological unknowable." All subjects placed within this category may as well not exist from a human perspective anyway. After all, why bother with that which eludes any form of human comprehension?

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05-09-2013, 10:12 PM
RE: How could a god know he's omniscient?
(04-09-2013 09:16 PM)DylanC Wrote:  
(04-09-2013 05:56 PM)cjlr Wrote:  If we were omniscient, that would, by definition, include knowing it.

But wouldn't a being who knows everything except 1/100/however many things be indistinguishable from an actually omniscient being if the unknown unknowns were also unknown by anything it knew about (i.e. no people/other species knew about these unknown unknowns either?). I'm trying to see how theists make sense of what seems to me to be a logical impossibility.

Edit for clarity: Is it logically possible to know that there are no unknown unknowns? If not, then how could anything ever claim omniscience? If so....how is that logically possible?


Sorry I can't even read your post without thinking about this:

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06-09-2013, 03:21 AM
RE: How could a god know he's omniscient?
Then there's American Football. Back in the day, Boston the city-state would paint a Patriot on their banners and go on a crusade. The power of the god was the power of the state. And just like when the Cowboys went on a run and became "America's team," how a hick like YHWH from Ur became, you know, Omni.

Which to me indicates no reason to solve the complication of omniscience after solving the simplicity of god. Undecided

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