How did an old religion get it directionally right?
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24-01-2016, 06:16 PM
RE: How did an old religion get it directionally right?
Welcome to TTA. Smile Many religions have creation stories. Many religions have creation stories that include their ideas of how the universe came to be, therefore it's not odd that one of the many creation stories might line up with science just by pure coincidence. We are also pattern making creatures, so it is also possible to draw comparisons between religion and science where there are none.

"Let the waters settle and you will see the moon and stars mirrored in your own being." -Rumi
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24-01-2016, 06:54 PM
RE: How did an old religion get it directionally right?
(24-01-2016 04:08 PM)SNair Wrote:  Here is one modern day scientific hypothesis of how everything could have come from nothing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo. Essentially, the theory states that a disturbance in the space time fabric of some sort causes energy fluctuations and that in turn starts a cascade of events where energy is converted from one form to another (i.e. material world).

Hinduism (Sanatan Dharma), one of world’s oldest religion has had the following concepts of creation:

1. In the beginning, there was total silence (i.e. nothingness) and the universe was created (i.e. by Brahman = Universal consciousness) with the sound OHM (i.e. frequency = fluctuations in space time fabric). Theosophists like myself argue that this is in harmony with modern much more specific and detailed scientific discoveries.

2. Cyclical Universe in Hinduism: The birth and death process is endless. The universe is created and in time it will cease to exist and in its place another one is created and this cycle of birth and death is endless. Again, I argue that this is in harmony with modern scientific theory that the expanding universe with at some point start to contract and the whole Big Bang may repeat itself.

3. Multiverse: There are multiple universes in simultaneous existence. Though there are modern day scientific theories, I don’t think we can conclusively assert this to be the case. Nevertheless Hinduism (Sanatan Dharma) is firm in this point of view.

My Question: For a religion that is well over 3000 years old, from all the possible explanations and descriptions they could have developed for the creation and nature of the universe, why did they develop this one?

Wait a minute. Space time is not nothing. So you are already off to a bad start here.

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24-01-2016, 07:29 PM (This post was last modified: 24-01-2016 07:58 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: How did an old religion get it directionally right?
(24-01-2016 04:08 PM)SNair Wrote:  Here is one modern day scientific hypothesis of how everything could have come from nothing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo. Essentially, the theory states that a disturbance in the space time fabric of some sort causes energy fluctuations and that in turn starts a cascade of events where energy is converted from one form to another (i.e. material world).

Hinduism (Sanatan Dharma), one of world’s oldest religion has had the following concepts of creation:

1. In the beginning, there was total silence (i.e. nothingness) and the universe was created (i.e. by Brahman = Universal consciousness) with the sound OHM (i.e. frequency = fluctuations in space time fabric). Theosophists like myself argue that this is in harmony with modern much more specific and detailed scientific discoveries.

2. Cyclical Universe in Hinduism: The birth and death process is endless. The universe is created and in time it will cease to exist and in its place another one is created and this cycle of birth and death is endless. Again, I argue that this is in harmony with modern scientific theory that the expanding universe with at some point start to contract and the whole Big Bang may repeat itself.

3. Multiverse: There are multiple universes in simultaneous existence. Though there are modern day scientific theories, I don’t think we can conclusively assert this to be the case. Nevertheless Hinduism (Sanatan Dharma) is firm in this point of view.

My Question: For a religion that is well over 3000 years old, from all the possible explanations and descriptions they could have developed for the creation and nature of the universe, why did they develop this one?

First of all, it appears you have the science wrong. No one in science posits "a disturbance in the spacetime" fabric. Spacetime are dimensions specific to this universe, until proven otherwise, that coalesced out of the singularity. If there were "energy fluctuations" then nothing was even created, necessarily. Matter and energy are interchangeable. So the scenario presented is basically meaningless. The questions remain. Where did the energy come from, and where did spacetime come from ? The reason you see it "in harmony" is you have "interpreted" it to meet your requirements, (confirmation bias). I think you need to read the creation myth again. It's almost identical to the Babylonian one, (from which the Hebrews took their creation myth). Brahma "awoke and saw the *empty universe*. It was already there. And he saw the waters, already there. Just as in Genesis. the god "moved over the face of the deep", (which is presumed). The universe (as we know it today) was unknown. Humans did not know about galaxies until early in the last century. They didn't know about them back when these creation myths were cooked up. The "universe" was what was known to them, from what they could see. So no. They didn't get anything "right" any more than anyone else in the ancient world got anything "right".

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24-01-2016, 08:52 PM
RE: How did an old religion get it directionally right?
(24-01-2016 04:08 PM)SNair Wrote:  Here is one modern day scientific hypothesis of how everything could have come from nothing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo. Essentially, the theory states that a disturbance in the space time fabric of some sort causes energy fluctuations and that in turn starts a cascade of events where energy is converted from one form to another (i.e. material world).

Hinduism (Sanatan Dharma), one of world’s oldest religion has had the following concepts of creation:

Now did anyone who believed the religion know what any of that meant BEFORE science came along, or did they just say "hey, these two are kinda similar" AFTER the fact? Because the latter has a track record of giving predictive credit to a lot of stuff that is actually pretty false. Being predictive requires you to actually give a PRECISE statement of what you're predicting, not something vague and poetic that you can later fit to match reality. That's one of the older tricks of con artists and mentalists to make it seem like they know more than they actually due.

(24-01-2016 04:08 PM)SNair Wrote:  1. In the beginning, there was total silence (i.e. nothingness) and the universe was created (i.e. by Brahman = Universal consciousness) with the sound OHM (i.e. frequency = fluctuations in space time fabric). Theosophists like myself argue that this is in harmony with modern much more specific and detailed scientific discoveries.

Frequency is simply a rate of repetition of some event, be it the compression of a medium carrying successive sound waves or how rapidly your statements make one of us repeatedly bash our heads against the desk. It is not necessarily a "fluctuation in space-time" -- neither the sound waves nor the facedesking involve space-time fluctuating. If there were fluctuations in space time, AND the repeated at a somewhat fixed rate, then they would have a frequency, but in that particular case frequency would be a property of the fluctuation and NOT definitively the SAME as the fluctuation, in much the same way as grass is not definitively the same as green or tubas are not definitively the same as bass.

... also, I'd challenge you to provide one scientifically verified example of a repetitive "fluctuation in space time" -- and no, sound waves don't count. We're talking about how this religion supposedly matches science, right? Well where does it match?

(24-01-2016 04:08 PM)SNair Wrote:  2. Cyclical Universe in Hinduism: The birth and death process is endless. The universe is created and in time it will cease to exist and in its place another one is created and this cycle of birth and death is endless. Again, I argue that this is in harmony with modern scientific theory that the expanding universe with at some point start to contract and the whole Big Bang may repeat itself.

Science is currently leaning away from the Bang/Crunch cycle and towards an eventual heat death. It's not wholly settled, but if we were to call it now on account of some arbitrary game clock having run out, it would be settled AGAINST a cyclical universe. In any event, "things go in cycles" is hardly unique enough of a prediction to point to Hinduism.

(24-01-2016 04:08 PM)SNair Wrote:  3. Multiverse: There are multiple universes in simultaneous existence. Though there are modern day scientific theories, I don’t think we can conclusively assert this to be the case. Nevertheless Hinduism (Sanatan Dharma) is firm in this point of view.

Multiverse theory is one way of modelling quantum mechanics. It is far from universally agreed upon by scientists and is not proven, as you note. There's no agreement to be accounted for here.

(24-01-2016 04:08 PM)SNair Wrote:  My Question: For a religion that is well over 3000 years old, from all the possible explanations and descriptions they could have developed for the creation and nature of the universe, why did they develop this one?

Obviously you're trying to hold this version of Hinduism up as essentially calling the results before science did when, as pointed out, that argument is being... oversold, to say the least. But as for why they did it? Lots of possible explanations.

Lets say it was just completely random guessing, and all the other religions out there did the same thing, and let's for the sake of argument say that Hinduism clearly got it right (it hasn't) at the same time that everyone else got it wrong. What did they know? Well, let's say a million people buy lotto tickets at a million-to-one odds, and one person wins when all the others lose? What did THAT person know? Nothing. It's possible to be right by dumb luck, and if there's enough people playing the guessing game, the odds are that someone's going to do just that. (Not that Hinduism has won, either. You were off on every point of evidence.)

That it IS a guessing game is easy to see in how people are playing it, though. The point of commonality in these religions is that they extrapolate ideas and metaphors from their primitive time, things that the human authors of the universe would be familiar with, to the larger forces governing the universe. The Abrahamic religions, for example, extrapolated the notion of an absolute lord as king of all reality. Many religions extrapolated the cyclical nature of the seasons or heavens to a cyclical pattern to all existence. One of the most common ways to make gods are to anthropmorphize natural or abstract forces, such as a god behind the natural phenomenon of lightning (Thor or Zeus) or a god behind the abstract concept of destruction (Shiva).

The commonality of method is this: First, someone comes up with the doctrine. Bonus points for it being poetic or superficially deep. Yes, I know that should be an oxymoron, but somehow it works in practice. Second, have people accept and believe it on faith rather than subject it to a rigorous and critical examination that would eliminate it from consideration if it proved to be false. Bonus points if the believers are willing to punish or silence the critics in all manner of brutal methods. Third, propogate this faith-based belief down through the generations. And fourth, use confirmation bias to register all the hits, ignore all the misses, and often mischaracterize misses as hits. Your own post is a prime example of this.

This is how ALL the religions worked. Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shinto, ALL OF THEM. Even modern, invented religions like Scientology are falling into this pattern. And this method -- let's give it the name "epistemological faith", meaning "I believe this because I have a per-determined conviction in it as doctrine despite a lack of evidence for it and despite evidence against it" -- has a woefully abysmal track record for being right. If every religion but yours is wrong -- and there's a hell of a lot of those -- then even if the one lotto ticket got lucky (it didn't) epistemological faith has guided a hell of a lot of people to false beliefs and is a shitty way of knowing anything. It IS just guessing.

So how did the ancient Hindus come to their beliefs? THEY GUESSED. If their horseshoe landed closer to the stake than most beliefs -- and that's still an if -- that doesn't mean they were any better than anyone else. Get a bunch of people with weak arms and terrible aim and SOMEONE'S horseshoe is going to end up closer to the stake, regardless of how much they all equally suck. Given how many ringers science has thrown and how few religion has thrown, I think the best strategy is to ignore religion entirely and pay attention to the science. And if there comes a point where science and religion do agree on one or two items, then hey, paying attention to science will let me know they're true, and paying attention to the religion will not.
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24-01-2016, 08:54 PM
RE: How did an old religion get it directionally right?
(24-01-2016 05:50 PM)SNair Wrote:  That's a blanket term to discard almost any perspective other the current scientific knowledge itself.

That's not what a sharp-shooter fallacy means, don't act like a twat.

I'd also point a few other things: Firstly that you are engaged confirmation bias, counting the hits but ignoring the misses, which is inherently misleading if not intentionally dishonest.

Secondly you are trying to relate superstitious writings to shit that doesn't exist. You have to show that a "universal consciousness" not only exists but that it's capable of creating a universe and that it did. Also you would have to show how you can create a universe with a sound/ fluctuation is space time when a universe has to exist for their to be space time. Got your cart before your horse there kiddo.
So no Theosophists are just wrong, your superstitions can't be in line with science if the science your saying it's in line with is a bunch of disproven, unproven, or just plain made up nonsense.

You're just trying to weld your personal beliefs on to science, nonsense science no less, after the fact.

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24-01-2016, 09:04 PM
RE: How did an old religion get it directionally right?
(24-01-2016 04:08 PM)SNair Wrote:  Here is one modern day scientific hypothesis of how everything could have come from nothing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo. Essentially, the theory states that a disturbance in the space time fabric of some sort causes energy fluctuations and that in turn starts a cascade of events where energy is converted from one form to another (i.e. material world).

Hinduism (Sanatan Dharma), one of world’s oldest religion has had the following concepts of creation:

1. In the beginning, there was total silence (i.e. nothingness) and the universe was created (i.e. by Brahman = Universal consciousness) with the sound OHM (i.e. frequency = fluctuations in space time fabric). Theosophists like myself argue that this is in harmony with modern much more specific and detailed scientific discoveries.

2. Cyclical Universe in Hinduism: The birth and death process is endless. The universe is created and in time it will cease to exist and in its place another one is created and this cycle of birth and death is endless. Again, I argue that this is in harmony with modern scientific theory that the expanding universe with at some point start to contract and the whole Big Bang may repeat itself.

3. Multiverse: There are multiple universes in simultaneous existence. Though there are modern day scientific theories, I don’t think we can conclusively assert this to be the case. Nevertheless Hinduism (Sanatan Dharma) is firm in this point of view.

My Question: For a religion that is well over 3000 years old, from all the possible explanations and descriptions they could have developed for the creation and nature of the universe, why did they develop this one?

This is the sound of Ohm, and how you play it.

Welcome.

[Image: Samba_surdo1.jpg]

[Image: samba_low_surdo.gif]

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24-01-2016, 09:09 PM (This post was last modified: 24-01-2016 09:17 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: How did an old religion get it directionally right?
(24-01-2016 09:04 PM)Banjo Wrote:  
(24-01-2016 04:08 PM)SNair Wrote:  Here is one modern day scientific hypothesis of how everything could have come from nothing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ImvlS8PLIo. Essentially, the theory states that a disturbance in the space time fabric of some sort causes energy fluctuations and that in turn starts a cascade of events where energy is converted from one form to another (i.e. material world).

Hinduism (Sanatan Dharma), one of world’s oldest religion has had the following concepts of creation:

1. In the beginning, there was total silence (i.e. nothingness) and the universe was created (i.e. by Brahman = Universal consciousness) with the sound OHM (i.e. frequency = fluctuations in space time fabric). Theosophists like myself argue that this is in harmony with modern much more specific and detailed scientific discoveries.

2. Cyclical Universe in Hinduism: The birth and death process is endless. The universe is created and in time it will cease to exist and in its place another one is created and this cycle of birth and death is endless. Again, I argue that this is in harmony with modern scientific theory that the expanding universe with at some point start to contract and the whole Big Bang may repeat itself.

3. Multiverse: There are multiple universes in simultaneous existence. Though there are modern day scientific theories, I don’t think we can conclusively assert this to be the case. Nevertheless Hinduism (Sanatan Dharma) is firm in this point of view.

My Question: For a religion that is well over 3000 years old, from all the possible explanations and descriptions they could have developed for the creation and nature of the universe, why did they develop this one?

This is the sound of Ohm, and how you play it.

Welcome.

[Image: Samba_surdo1.jpg]

[Image: samba_low_surdo.gif]

I used to know what the note (Ohm) was on the Western scale. Is it A or A-flat ? Do you play the tympani too ?

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24-01-2016, 09:15 PM
RE: How did an old religion get it directionally right?
(24-01-2016 09:09 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I used to know what the note was on the western scale. Is it A or A-flat ?

That is percussion, the low note is a muffled low tone played with the palm. The note in Brackets is an "open tone" played with the hand off the drum with the mallet. It sounds like M Ohm, in the first line.

The second line sounds like M Ohm Ohm. The second line therefore proves the universe actually had two creators with the same name.

You see how it all works now Bucky? (As if you wouldn't know.) Big Grin

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24-01-2016, 09:44 PM (This post was last modified: 24-01-2016 09:48 PM by jennybee.)
RE: How did an old religion get it directionally right?
(24-01-2016 08:54 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  
(24-01-2016 05:50 PM)SNair Wrote:  That's a blanket term to discard almost any perspective other the current scientific knowledge itself.

That's not what a sharp-shooter fallacy means, don't act like a twat.

I'd also point a few other things: Firstly that you are engaged confirmation bias, counting the hits but ignoring the misses, which is inherently misleading if not intentionally dishonest.

Secondly you are trying to relate superstitious writings to shit that doesn't exist. You have to show that a "universal consciousness" not only exists but that it's capable of creating a universe and that it did. Also you would have to show how you can create a universe with a sound/ fluctuation is space time when a universe has to exist for their to be space time. Got your cart before your horse there kiddo.
So no Theosophists are just wrong, your superstitions can't be in line with science if the science your saying it's in line with is a bunch of disproven, unproven, or just plain made up nonsense.

You're just trying to weld your personal beliefs on to science, nonsense science no less, after the fact.

You could also do this same thing with virtually any religion. There are several books I read as a Christian written by "scientists" and woo peddlers like Ray Comfort (check out his book Scientific Facts in The Bible-- if you want a good laugh) who claim that the OT and NT have scientific facts written within their pages.

If you break down enough pieces of (any) religion, you may find shreds of things that could line up with science. For example, yes, there is a cyclical universe in Hinduism *but* the death and destruction of the earth will come about by the Hindu god, Shiva (also known as the Destroyer). In order to line pieces up with science (or sort of line pieces up with science), you'll have to wring out the woo as is done here by simply saying "cyclical universe" and leave out the part that a Hindu god is going to be the one who is going to destroy things.

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24-01-2016, 11:16 PM
RE: How did an old religion get it directionally right?
(24-01-2016 04:08 PM)SNair Wrote:  My Question: For a religion that is well over 3000 years old, from all the possible explanations and descriptions they could have developed for the creation and nature of the universe, why did they develop this one?

They didn't. You have managed to post hoc shoehorn bits of your religion into something that vaguely resembles parts of one of many theories regarding cosmology. I've seen Christianity and Islam do just as much for exactly the same reason and using exactly the same methods. You'll receive what they did for their efforts.

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