How do Aethist think about veganism?
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29-04-2014, 09:54 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 09:34 AM)Alex_Leonardo Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 09:31 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I understand very well your sentiment, and its not very far from how I feel about death and killing animals for food myself. My opinions where the same as yours when I first became vegan, with the exception that i didn't believe you could reliably find farms that treated animals humanely and with dignity. I think if you consider the scenario where a chicken is slaughtered on a factory farm, and a deer is shot in the wild, one definitely feels more wrong then the other. I certainly wouldn't say I am avidly against mercy killing either.

As I said in a previous post though, its hard to get around the simple causal relationship between killing and eating. Its harder still to justify the killing and eating when it is so clearly optional. I think the best scenario is you treat animals humanely and ethically AND you don't eat them too.

Lastly, I am a vegan for other reasons as well. There are strong humanitarian and environmental arguments for veganism also. Even if it were possible to raise enough meat for everyone and treat them humanely (and it might, not sure), there are still ecological facts, such as it takes a multiple more resources to raise cattle as it does an equivalent quantity of grain, that should be considered.

Wait, are you the VeganAtheist?

No, I think you are referring to somebody else. Sounds like a pretty cool guy Tongue. Definitely not me though.
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29-04-2014, 09:55 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 08:05 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Lots of good comments. If I don't address you here please don't feel ignored.

Oh, I don't feel ignored; I simply observe that you are a coward.


Quote:cjlr made a great point for me. I have heard the "I'm too small to make a difference" argument before, and I think the question you have to ask yourself is "would the world be a better place if nobody ate animals?".


You seem to fail to understand that we ourselves are animals. And your question is disingenuously loaded and over-simplistic.


Quote: If the answer to that is yes then you you should consider which world you want to be a part of. After all, the only way we as a species can stop abusing animals is if everybody, one person at a time, makes a commitment to stop abusing animals!

Oh, yes, and you slip in your loaded assumption that eating meat is "abusing animals". And of course your implicit accusation that we, for eating animals, are abusing them. FUCK YOU, PASSIVE-AGGRESSIVE BITCH.


Quote:I understand it is tempting to draw parallels between eating meat and child labor. As the saying goes, two wrongs doesn't make a right. Many vegans are very conscientious of things like fair trade and working conditions for third world countries, and some of us aren't. Its a different topic worthy of its own debate, but it doesn't have any bearing on the moral question of eating meat.

Strawman much, asshole?



Quote:I haven't seen any evidence or any good arguments for how come we need animal bits for us to be healthy.

That's because you limit yourself to your own cult dogma, Mr. Argument from Personal Incredulity.



Quote: While I don't claim to be an expert, I have done a lot of research.

You are LYING. You just admitted that you don't know much about nutrition. Go FUCK yourself.



Quote: The biggest problems facing vegans iron deficiency and getting enough calcium. As it turns out though, pretty much all soy milk and other alternatives are calcium fortified and you can get plenty of iron from things like beans and spinach.

The biggest problems facing vegans is that you deny yourself the meat nutrition that would cause your brain to grow normally, thus mentally incapacitating yourselves and making yourselves more and more vulnerable and susceptible to your vegan-cult religion's woo.



Quote: If you eat in a "normal" vegan way your diet is rather low in protien, although it doesn't have to be low in fat. You can use readily available items like soy powder or whey protien if you intend to bulk up. If you care to look into it, there are many athletes in very demanding sports who are vegan. Matt Danzig, professionally MMA fighter, walks around at 170 pounds completely shredded, and he was vegan during his whole run on the ultimate fighter show and for all of his UFC MMA bouts.

Really don't give a fuck. And Lance Armstrong went for years and years telling everyone he wasn't on steroids (wink, wink).



Quote:PaleolitchicFreeThinker, I understand the point you are trying to make. We can't demand of animals the same kind of moral reasoning and intellectualism that we do of people. Its precisely because we have higher thinking faculties and can do things like use logic and empathy that we must hold ourselves to a higher standard than animals.

Oh, look - yet another passive-aggressive swipe at us: We are unreasoning, unintellectual, immoral, wasting our higher thinking capacities, illogical and devoid of empathy. Go fuck yourself.


Quote:Animals do lots of terrible things in nature, nature itself is not "good" or "benign". That doesn't mean we should mimic it.

Hey, DUMBASS -- WE ARE ANIMALS. WE ARE THINGS IN NATURE.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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29-04-2014, 09:58 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
I am an atheists who isn't quite a vegan because i love milk and cheese.....But if you exclude those items i am vegan.:-D I grew up in a carnivorous family and never could get myself to chew up an animal. To me it feels just as wrong as eating an infant, human don't eat their babies so why do they think its justifiable to eat other creatures' babies? Wild animals eat other animals, so I can see others arguing that that's just the way life works but I feel like I at least have enough motor skills to pick some vegetables
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29-04-2014, 09:59 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 09:43 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 09:31 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I understand very well your sentiment, and its not very far from how I feel about death and killing animals for food myself. My opinions where the same as yours when I first became vegan, with the exception that i didn't believe you could reliably find farms that treated animals humanely and with dignity. I think if you consider the scenario where a chicken is slaughtered on a factory farm, and a deer is shot in the wild, one definitely feels more wrong then the other. I certainly wouldn't say I am avidly against mercy killing either.

As I said in a previous post though, its hard to get around the simple causal relationship between killing and eating. Its harder still to justify the killing and eating when it is so clearly optional. I think the best scenario is you treat animals humanely and ethically AND you don't eat them too.

Lastly, I am a vegan for other reasons as well. There are strong humanitarian and environmental arguments for veganism also. Even if it were possible to raise enough meat for everyone and treat them humanely (and it might, not sure), there are still ecological facts, such as it takes a multiple more resources to raise cattle as it does an equivalent quantity of grain, that should be considered.

Your approach is pointless because you are going against nature and evolution. You cannot reverse evolution, at least not without a scientific breeding program.

What you are doing just leaves everything the way it is while you may be doing yourself harm.

I don't know where you live, but if you LOOK, you will find sustainable farms within driving distance.

Supporting them is the only way to actually help animals. The more people use them, the more these farms will spring up and the less animals will have to endure torture to feed an ever-growing population of humans.

I agree it is far preferable to eat animals from local farms that treat their animals much more humanely than factor farms do. If everybody went at least that far I think the welfare of animals would be much better. I would still hold the position though that is more preferable still not to eat them at all.

Also, keep in mind our evolution is not a mandate for meat eating. I agree we evolved to eat meat, but that doesn't mean we need it nor that we should continue to eat it.
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29-04-2014, 10:01 AM (This post was last modified: 29-04-2014 10:18 AM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 09:19 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Its a debate on a moral theory, I think that is the best you can do. As a challenge, create a better argument against murder, or pedophilia. The best you can do is moral proscriptions, or make appeals to a higher moral authority or ideal. That doesn't mean its not productive and it doesn't make all such arguments invalid.


You didn't address his objections in the least.


Quote:Morality is intangible and inexact. Its not a real thing but a subjective interpretation. We have to except some things as true without basis in order for a moral discussion to be possible. My axioms are very clear:

The lives of all animals have value.

That is not a premise. That is a loaded assertion. "Having value" means nothing.



Quote:Taking the life of an animal is immoral without good justification or cause

Personal survival is a damned good cause.



Quote:Good justification or cause includes to save your own life, or the life of another person or animal


Surviving is saving your own life.

Quote:Its not exhaustive.

It's not even thought out.


Quote:You can't make absolutist moral proscription, real life circumstances make you qualify everything.

....defeating your own pseudo-argument


Quote: I can't justify 'why' these things are true, no more than anyone can justify 'why' any moral theory is true. If you reject my axioms, if you build your moral theory on an entirely distinct on non inclusive set of principles, then there is no argument I can form to persuade you.

So again: GO THE FUCK AWAY.



(29-04-2014 09:20 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 08:31 AM)Alex_Leonardo Wrote:  Hey, question!
How do you think about cloned meat?
It can't feel pain because it doesn't have a brain.

I don't think I would eat it personally, but I don't have any good arguments for why it would be wrong. Interestingly enough, peta has a million dollar bounty for the first person to develop a cow without a brain.

...which would still have nerves, and would still be a fucking animal. But it does illustrate how sort-sighted, fucking stupid and batshit your mutually-crazyfying cults are.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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29-04-2014, 10:01 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 09:58 AM)QUELSQUELS Wrote:  I am an atheists who isn't quite a vegan because i love milk and cheese.....But if you exclude those items i am vegan.:-D I grew up in a carnivorous family and never could get myself to chew up an animal. To me it feels just as wrong as eating an infant, human don't eat their babies so why do they think its justifiable to eat other creatures' babies? Wild animals eat other animals, so I can see others arguing that that's just the way life works but I feel like I at least have enough motor skills to pick some vegetables

I love my vegetarian friends Thumbsup . I do wish dairy cows had an easier time of it though.
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29-04-2014, 10:08 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
We just need to get our own cows and treat them to hugs and kisses all day :-))
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29-04-2014, 10:09 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 09:31 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  BLah blah blah

As I said in a previous post though, its hard to get around the simple causal relationship between killing and eating.

No one is trying to avoid this, Mr. Straw Man. It's a fucking fact of life. But you seem to want to avoid the fact that YOU still kill millions of animals with every glass of water you drink.



Quote: Its harder still to justify the killing and eating when it is so clearly optional.

You haven't shown that it's "optional" at all. Asserting your party line over and over isn't evidence.


Quote: I think the best scenario is you treat animals humanely and ethically AND you don't eat them too.


That's fine FOR YOU. But not for the rest of the human race. You are free to starve yourself if you want. Keep your batshit theology to yourself.


Quote:Lastly, I am a vegan for other reasons as well. There are strong humanitarian and environmental arguments for veganism also.

No, there aren't, and your asserting it doesn't make it so.


Quote: Even if it were possible to raise enough meat for everyone and treat them humanely (and it might, not sure), there are still ecological facts, such as it takes a multiple more resources to raise cattle as it does an equivalent quantity of grain, that should be considered.

And those cattle will provide infinitely more useful nutrition than that wheat, which is precisely why we raise cattle. You can't fucking cherry-pick facts, asshole.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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29-04-2014, 10:12 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 09:59 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Also, keep in mind our evolution is not a mandate for meat eating. I agree we evolved to eat meat, but that doesn't mean we need it nor that we should continue to eat it.

That is where we differ. I maintain that we need it.

You can bring out all you know about nutrition, and it won't change my mind a bit.

Why? Because we don't know shit about nutrition. We are only just beginning to understand a fraction of it.

You trust our advances in learning about foods enough to balance your life on it, I don't. Most people don't.

I maintain that we have only just scratched the surface of what there is to know about nutrition. I most certainly won't gamble my life on it.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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29-04-2014, 10:16 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 09:59 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I agree it is far preferable to eat animals from local farms that treat their animals much more humanely than factor farms do. If everybody went at least that far I think the welfare of animals would be much better.

And you have again destroyed your own position.



Quote: I would still hold the position though that is more preferable still not to eat them at all.

And, like you accuse us of, it comes down to "just what YOU like". Hypocrite.


Quote:Also, keep in mind our evolution is not a mandate for meat eating.

It most certainly is, as our health depends on it.

Quote: I agree we evolved to eat meat, but that doesn't mean we need it nor that we should continue to eat it.

We are starving ourselves of vital nutrition for our brains and bodies if we don't. Which is WHY we SHOULD. All your assertions boil down to is emotionalistic drivel.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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