How do Aethist think about veganism?
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29-04-2014, 10:23 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 09:19 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Its a debate on a moral theory, I think that is the best you can do.

Horseshit.

You're presumably capable of explaining yourself. Aren't you?

(29-04-2014 09:19 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  As a challenge, create a better argument against murder, or pedophilia. The best you can do is moral proscriptions, or make appeals to a higher moral authority or ideal. That doesn't mean its not productive and it doesn't make all such arguments invalid.

Horseshit. Although the fixated reference to higher moral authority is perhaps telling.

But thanks for throwing out yet another pointless emotive evasion rather than just explaining your own stances.

(29-04-2014 09:19 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Morality is intangible and inexact. Its not a real thing but a subjective interpretation.

That's sure as hell not the impression you chose to create in your OP.

Why the discrepancy?

(29-04-2014 09:19 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  We have to except some things as true without basis in order for a moral discussion to be possible.

Horseshit.

"Unless you agree with me we can't have a discussion". NOPE.

(29-04-2014 09:19 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  My axioms are very clear:

The lives of all animals have value.

What is "value"?

(what is "life"? what is "[an] animal"?)

(29-04-2014 09:19 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Taking the life of an animal is immoral without good justification or cause.

Good justification or cause includes to save your own life, or the life of another person or animal.

Is improving one's life sufficient cause? Most would say yes.
(and note that in many contexts this implicitly includes you)

If we killed all the wolves it would save the lives of many times more deer. Is this a good justification?

(29-04-2014 09:19 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Its not exhaustive. You can't make absolutist moral proscription...

Unlike your OP?

(29-04-2014 09:19 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  ... real life circumstances make you qualify everything. I can't justify 'why' these things are true, no more than anyone can justify 'why' any moral theory is true.

That just means you've not undergone any self-examination.

That there is no objective standard means there are no objective substantiations. No shit - I hear the sun also rises. So what?

(29-04-2014 09:19 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  If you reject my axioms, if you build your moral theory on an entirely distinct on non inclusive set of principles, then there is no argument I can form to persuade you.

So what?

Please feel free to explain any of your many, many assertions.

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29-04-2014, 10:31 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 10:23 AM)cjlr Wrote:  If we killed all the wolves it would save the lives of many times more deer. Is this a good justification?

You see that's another point where these cultists fall so short-sighted. We kill all the wolves and we upset the balance of the ecosystem. The deer quickly over-populate and starve. That's why we have hunting in the first place. The land can only sustain a certain amount of deer, elk, etc. First thing you learn in a hunter's ed class is that we still have wildlife because of hunters.

Vegan/peta cultists simply ignore this fact.

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29-04-2014, 10:34 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
Some of these guys are getting defensive about their meat consumption. Meat is dirtynasty and I don't see how it is appealing to people but it is.And unless some miracle clone meat comes along then I think its safe to say as long as there are animals for feeding on, they will be fed on. Our morals all come from different places and this is one of those things where some people think its child abuse to deprive their children of meat and others think its child abuse to force feed their children dead animals. This is one of those issues that's never gonna get solved
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29-04-2014, 10:52 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
Cjlr I am trying my best, but I have to admit I am not sure what kind of explanation you are looking for. Which part of my argument do you want me to clarify? Can you be specific about what you find at fault with it?
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29-04-2014, 11:06 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 07:06 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 04:00 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  That said, and since I have concluded that I can't change the world and that I'm really tiny and too stupid to make any significant difference to this world, I'd rather at least enjoy life.

That's called diffusion of responsibility and the tragedy of the commons. Those are NOT GOOD THINGS.

It's neither of those two.

I don't think others are responsible and I'm not. I think everyone is responsible but I'm having a hard time being responsible, even if I want to. Also, it's not about self-interest or going against the group's interests.

When I have two family members facing jail, another one losing their home and another one losing her mind, I can hardly care about the well-being of other animals. I need to feel better and I will eat my bacon. That's what I was saying.

It was also a bit of an exaggeration. I do believe I'm making a difference in the way I treat people and the way I teach kids, I just won't suffer in the thought that I'm generally insignificant.

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29-04-2014, 11:08 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 10:34 AM)QUELSQUELS Wrote:  Some of these guys are getting defensive about their meat consumption.

Defensive? Disingenuous strawman much?

Quote:Meat is dirtynasty

No, it's not. It provides vital nutrition you can't get anywhere else.

Quote: and I don't see how it is appealing to people but it is.

Fallacious appeal to personal incredulity.


Quote:And unless some miracle clone meat comes along then I think its safe to say as long as there are animals for feeding on, they will be fed on.

Don't forget that WE are animals as well.

Quote:Our morals all come from different places

This isn't a moral issue at all, and you can't make it on by bleating over and over that it is.


Quote: and this is one of those things where some people think its child abuse to deprive their children of meat and others think its child abuse to force feed their children dead animals.

Emotionally-charged drivel much?


Quote:This is one of those issues that's never gonna get solved


Yes because veg-cultists will continue to bleat emotionalist drivel rather than paying attention to facts.

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29-04-2014, 11:12 AM (This post was last modified: 29-04-2014 11:34 AM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 10:52 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Cjlr I am trying my best,

No, you are not -- not in the least -- you disingenuous lying son of a bitch.



Quote:but I have to admit I am not sure what kind of explanation you are looking for. Which part of my argument do you want me to clarify? Can you be specific about what you find at fault with it?
You are simply making a shit-ton of unsupported emotional assertions laced with back-handed ad hominem and completely devoid of supporting evidence. cjlr has been completely clear on this. Your being completely and willfully ignorant of your burden of proof is your own fault and problem. You don't have a fucking argument without evidence.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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29-04-2014, 12:25 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 08:05 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  PaleolitchicFreeThinker, I understand the point you are trying to make. We can't demand of animals the same kind of moral reasoning and intellectualism that we do of people. Its precisely because we have higher thinking faculties and can do things like use logic and empathy that we must hold ourselves to a higher standard than animals. Animals do lots of terrible things in nature, nature itself is not "good" or "benign". That doesn't mean we should mimic it. For my own part, I think of animals like most poeple think of their pets, or of very small children. They feel, and think, and have personalities, and can love and be loved, but they definitely aren't people. Worthy of protecting sure, but I am not willing to give them the right to vote or let them drive cars. Would send a dog to prison for life for murder either, it just doesn't make sense to judge people and animals equally.

Why not? Humans are animals and we are no better than the rest. Why should we not do what animals do? You know what animals are doing? They are surviving. To live something must die. So meat has become an important part of our diets because it has helped us survive.

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29-04-2014, 12:44 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 12:25 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 08:05 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  PaleolitchicFreeThinker, I understand the point you are trying to make. We can't demand of animals the same kind of moral reasoning and intellectualism that we do of people. Its precisely because we have higher thinking faculties and can do things like use logic and empathy that we must hold ourselves to a higher standard than animals. Animals do lots of terrible things in nature, nature itself is not "good" or "benign". That doesn't mean we should mimic it. For my own part, I think of animals like most poeple think of their pets, or of very small children. They feel, and think, and have personalities, and can love and be loved, but they definitely aren't people. Worthy of protecting sure, but I am not willing to give them the right to vote or let them drive cars. Would send a dog to prison for life for murder either, it just doesn't make sense to judge people and animals equally.

Why not? Humans are animals and we are no better than the rest. Why should we not do what animals do? You know what animals are doing? They are surviving. To live something must die. So meat has become an important part of our diets because it has helped us survive.
Human beings can reason and contemplate morality and animals can't. Its the same reason we don't give animals trials by jury. If you believed that animals and humans were completely level, then you would be obligated to extend the same right we reserve for people to animals. Like voting, owning property, or whatever. Incidentally, if humans and animals are the same then murdering animals should carry the same penalty as murdering a person. On the flip side, if murdering animals isn't wrong then murdering people shouldn't be wrong either. I don't think any of us pro cannibalism right?

If you are trying to equate human an animal behavior, then eating our young, rape, and incest would all be ok because animals do it. Primantis bite the head of their mate during intercourse. It is pretty clear that we make many distinctions between people and animals. For what reason couldn't we include what we eat?
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29-04-2014, 12:56 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
So what like 8 pages in and its devolved to the point where we are hurling around rape and incest, and comparing the mating habits of a praying mantis to human diets.

Hmmm..let me give my perspective. I was a vegan for a month or so, mainly because my liver was failing and the smell and taste of meat made me sick. It did not make me morally superior in anyway.

I felt like crap the whole time, was pale and weak. Side-effects like that, the need to take supplements to your diet, to not feel like crap the whole time seems to me to be a compelling argument against veganism.

That and the self-righteous, condescending attitude that seems to be part of he package is another reason I can't convince myself to eat only plant matter.

The requirement of evidence to back your claim does not disappear because it hurts your feelings, reality does not care about your feefees.
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