How do Aethist think about veganism?
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29-04-2014, 01:07 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 12:44 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 12:25 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  Why not? Humans are animals and we are no better than the rest. Why should we not do what animals do? You know what animals are doing? They are surviving. To live something must die. So meat has become an important part of our diets because it has helped us survive.
Human beings can reason and contemplate morality and animals can't. Its the same reason we don't give animals trials by jury. If you believed that animals and humans were completely level, then you would be obligated to extend the same right we reserve for people to animals. Like voting, owning property, or whatever. Incidentally, if humans and animals are the same then murdering animals should carry the same penalty as murdering a person. On the flip side, if murdering animals isn't wrong then murdering people shouldn't be wrong either. I don't think any of us pro cannibalism right?

If you are trying to equate human an animal behavior, then eating our young, rape, and incest would all be ok because animals do it. Primantis bite the head of their mate during intercourse. It is pretty clear that we make many distinctions between people and animals. For what reason couldn't we include what we eat?

This is also not true. Tigers kill other animals yet almost never eat there young. So what if we have courts, haven't courts send innocent people to their deaths?

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29-04-2014, 02:57 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 12:44 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 12:25 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  Why not? Humans are animals and we are no better than the rest. Why should we not do what animals do? You know what animals are doing? They are surviving. To live something must die. So meat has become an important part of our diets because it has helped us survive.
Human beings can reason and contemplate morality and animals can't.

AGAIN: It's not a morality issue. It's an issue of nutritional needs, which is something you ADMIT you are ignorant about.


Quote: Its the same reason we don't give animals trials by jury.

Irrelevant loaded non-sequitur bullshit.


Quote:If you believed that animals and humans were completely level, then you would be obligated to extend the same right we reserve for people to animals. Like voting, owning property, or whatever.

That's fucking stupid. We human animals have certain cognitive and mental advantages. We develop a lot of largely useless mental constructs, but that doesn't make us not animals.


Quote:Incidentally, if humans and animals are the same then murdering animals should carry the same penalty as murdering a person. On the flip side, if murdering animals isn't wrong then murdering people shouldn't be wrong either. I don't think any of us pro cannibalism right?

That is fucking stupid. You are deliberately and disingenuously conflating, misrepresenting, and strawmanning what has been said. Humans ARE animals. That doesn't mean that animals are human.


Quote:

If you are trying to equate human an animal behavior, then eating our young, rape, and incest would all be ok because animals do it. Primantis bite the head of their mate during intercourse. It is pretty clear that we make many distinctions between people and animals. For what reason couldn't we include what we eat?

Again, fucknut, you are beating on a straw man. Humans are animals. All animals aren't humans. Fuck the hell off with your sloppy thinking caused by nutrient-starving your fucking brain.

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29-04-2014, 03:06 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 01:07 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 12:44 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Human beings can reason and contemplate morality and animals can't. Its the same reason we don't give animals trials by jury. If you believed that animals and humans were completely level, then you would be obligated to extend the same right we reserve for people to animals. Like voting, owning property, or whatever. Incidentally, if humans and animals are the same then murdering animals should carry the same penalty as murdering a person. On the flip side, if murdering animals isn't wrong then murdering people shouldn't be wrong either. I don't think any of us pro cannibalism right?

If you are trying to equate human an animal behavior, then eating our young, rape, and incest would all be ok because animals do it. Primantis bite the head of their mate during intercourse. It is pretty clear that we make many distinctions between people and animals. For what reason couldn't we include what we eat?

This is also not true. Tigers kill other animals yet almost never eat there young. So what if we have courts, haven't courts send innocent people to their deaths?

I am not sure I understand exactly what you are trying to say. Please help me to understand.
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29-04-2014, 03:08 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 12:56 PM)Blackhand293 Wrote:  So what like 8 pages in and its devolved to the point where we are hurling around rape and incest, and comparing the mating habits of a praying mantis to human diets.

Hmmm..let me give my perspective. I was a vegan for a month or so, mainly because my liver was failing and the smell and taste of meat made me sick. It did not make me morally superior in anyway.

I felt like crap the whole time, was pale and weak. Side-effects like that, the need to take supplements to your diet, to not feel like crap the whole time seems to me to be a compelling argument against veganism.

That and the self-righteous, condescending attitude that seems to be part of he package is another reason I can't convince myself to eat only plant matter.

I think its unfortunate you had such a negative experience, and I encourage you to give it another try. I hope your liver is better, and I think it might be easier if you try it again in better health Smile.
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29-04-2014, 03:27 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 10:52 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Cjlr I am trying my best, but I have to admit I am not sure what kind of explanation you are looking for.

One simple word, champ:
W
H
Y

(29-04-2014 10:52 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Which part of my argument do you want me to clarify? Can you be specific about what you find at fault with it?

The part where you have not presented an argument. You have made unsubstantiated declarations grounded solely in subjective personal experience. You've asserted nonsense, made disingenuous emotional appeals and constructed facetious false choices and bad analogies, delighted in weasel words, and never once explained the bases for your opinions.

While you rightly acknowledge that this will not convince other people - not that this observation in any way puts the brakes on the smug-train you're riding - you don't seem to get that for all that I don't care whether you convince me of anything I'd at the very least like to have some hope of understanding where you're coming from.

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29-04-2014, 03:27 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 03:08 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 12:56 PM)Blackhand293 Wrote:  I felt like crap the whole time, was pale and weak. Side-effects like that, the need to take supplements to your diet, to not feel like crap the whole time seems to me to be a compelling argument against veganism.

That and the self-righteous, condescending attitude that seems to be part of he package is another reason I can't convince myself to eat only plant matter.

I think its unfortunate you had such a negative experience, and I encourage you to give it another try. I hope your liver is better, and I think it might be easier if you try it again in better health Smile.

I'm sorry did you miss the part where I said the negatives outweigh any positives there might be? I bolded it just in-case you did, additionally no I have permanent liver damage now, and adding more stress to my system wont help it. Vegainism would add more stress something I'm not likely to survive.

The requirement of evidence to back your claim does not disappear because it hurts your feelings, reality does not care about your feefees.
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29-04-2014, 03:29 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 03:08 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 12:56 PM)Blackhand293 Wrote:  So what like 8 pages in and its devolved to the point where we are hurling around rape and incest, and comparing the mating habits of a praying mantis to human diets.

Hmmm..let me give my perspective. I was a vegan for a month or so, mainly because my liver was failing and the smell and taste of meat made me sick. It did not make me morally superior in anyway.

I felt like crap the whole time, was pale and weak. Side-effects like that, the need to take supplements to your diet, to not feel like crap the whole time seems to me to be a compelling argument against veganism.

That and the self-righteous, condescending attitude that seems to be part of he package is another reason I can't convince myself to eat only plant matter.

I think its unfortunate you had such a negative experience, and I encourage you to give it another try. I hope your liver is better, and I think it might be easier if you try it again in better health Smile.

I'm sorry the cobra bit you last time, but now that you are back to health, I would encourage you to try snake-handling once again. It's really Gawd's Will, so you should keep trying until you succeed.

Hobo

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29-04-2014, 03:31 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 11:06 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  It's neither of those two.

I don't think others are responsible and I'm not.

No, but I didn't say so.

(29-04-2014 11:06 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  I think everyone is responsible but I'm having a hard time being responsible, even if I want to.

A fair point.

(29-04-2014 11:06 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  Also, it's not about self-interest or going against the group's interests.

When I have two family members facing jail, another one losing their home and another one losing her mind, I can hardly care about the well-being of other animals. I need to feel better and I will eat my bacon. That's what I was saying.

But that's entirely a matter of self-interest over group interest...
(here, theoretically, with sub-optimal ecological practices for the purpose of short-term gratification)

I mean, we all do that all the time, but awareness is half the battle.

(29-04-2014 11:06 AM)undergroundp Wrote:  It was also a bit of an exaggeration. I do believe I'm making a difference in the way I treat people and the way I teach kids, I just won't suffer in the thought that I'm generally insignificant.

Nearly everyone is insignificant, but the magic of statistics is that insignificance is still significant.

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29-04-2014, 05:51 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 03:27 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 10:52 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Cjlr I am trying my best, but I have to admit I am not sure what kind of explanation you are looking for.

One simple word, champ:
W
H
Y

(29-04-2014 10:52 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Which part of my argument do you want me to clarify? Can you be specific about what you find at fault with it?

The part where you have not presented an argument. You have made unsubstantiated declarations grounded solely in subjective personal experience. You've asserted nonsense, made disingenuous emotional appeals and constructed facetious false choices and bad analogies, delighted in weasel words, and never once explained the bases for your opinions.

While you rightly acknowledge that this will not convince other people - not that this observation in any way puts the brakes on the smug-train you're riding - you don't seem to get that for all that I don't care whether you convince me of anything I'd at the very least like to have some hope of understanding where you're coming from.

Lets imagine I was trying to argue murder was wrong. Something I hope we all agree on. Here are some of the arguments I might use:

Murder is wrong because:

murder robs a person of their life, which you have no right to take from them

murder robs friends and family members of their loved one, which you have no right to take

murder causes emotional distress to those who cared about the deceased

murder undermines public safety and create fear and uncertainty in the public conscience

ect.

These are moral claims. They can't be proven like math can. I can look at a rock and say "look, carbon dating puts this in the "murder is wrong" period". If we want to talk about how come murder is wrong we have to agree on some basic premises, and except them as truth so we can use them to build more complex arguments. If we want to talk about murder or killing animals in a moral compass, then we have to agree at least on this much; suffering is bad thing, and animals suffering is worthy of moral consideration.

This is what I am attempting to do right now. This is my argument. When I say I think eating meat is wrong, this is why

Why is eating meat wrong?


the price the animal pays to die far exceeds the good it provides in your diet. Its unfair and unjust to make an animal pay such a huge price for such a small pleasure.

Killing animals undermines human empathy and encourages the darkest aspects of our nature.

Raising live stock is environmentally irresponsible and ecologically inefficient

This is a semantic argument we are having. We are essentially arguing about whether or not it is possible for us to argue. I would very much like to move on. If possible, it would be great if you all could curb the insults and the personal attacks. Its starting to weigh on me quite a bit. Thanks Smile.
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29-04-2014, 06:23 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 05:51 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Lets imagine I was trying to argue murder was wrong. Something I hope we all agree on. Here are some of the arguments I might use:

Murder is wrong because:

murder robs a person of their life, which you have no right to take from them

murder robs friends and family members of their loved one, which you have no right to take

murder causes emotional distress to those who cared about the deceased

murder undermines public safety and create fear and uncertainty in the public conscience

ect.

These are moral claims.

Yes. And those are ones you have actually begun to explain, which is the first time in this thread you have deigned to do so. So that's progress!

(29-04-2014 05:28 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  They can't be proven like math can.

Oh, look, a red herring!

Shiny!

(29-04-2014 05:28 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  If we want to talk about murder or killing animals in a moral compass, then we have to agree at least on this much; suffering is bad thing, and animals suffering is worthy of moral consideration.

No, those aren't premises which can be assumed.

Presuppositionalism doesn't work for apologetics, and we're not about to let you get away with it.
(nor the equivocation! human suffering and suffering in general being distinct concepts)

(29-04-2014 05:28 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  This is what I am attempting to do right now. This is my argument. When I say I think eating meat is wrong, this is why

Well, getting that far was only like pulling teeth...

Do note that nowhere yet in this thread have you actually given any "why" for any of the many claims and judgements you have made.

I'm glad that you are willing to reveal more of your own position. That's the only way there is anything to discuss.

(29-04-2014 05:28 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  Why is eating meat wrong?


the price the animal pays to die far exceeds the good it provides in your diet. Its unfair and unjust to make an animal pay such a huge price for such a small pleasure.

Why??

That is still an inadequately defined and poorly explored statement.

(29-04-2014 05:28 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  Killing animals undermines human empathy and encourages the darkest aspects of our nature.

Why??

That is a ludicrously broad and loaded statement. I'm'a need more substantiation than your subjective personal feels on that one.

(29-04-2014 05:28 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  Raising live stock is environmentally irresponsible and ecologically inefficient.

Indeed. And yet, this is a practical viewpoint and not a principled one, insofar as raising livestock is a highly variable set of acts.
(cf hunting; sustainable, well-managed hunting by humans is indistinguishable, so far as the animal in question is concerned, from hunting by non-human animals)

Should you wish to amend the statement - to, say, "industrial scale agriculture in the developed world" - then I think you'll find many here who agree, myself included - but with the caveat that this obviously and necessarily applies to all agriculture and not just livestock, and thus, has nothing to do with veganism.

(29-04-2014 05:28 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  This is a semantic argument we are having. We are essentially arguing about whether or not it is possible for us to argue. I would very much like to move on. If possible, it would be great if you all could curb the insults and the personal attacks. Its starting to weigh on me quite a bit. Thanks Smile.

Actually, you can take your sanctimonious passive-aggressive horseshit and shove it back up the ass it came from.

Your reluctance to substantiate your assertions is not a semantic difficulty; it is a fundamental problem with respect to possible communication.

Your tragically smarmy and self-satisfied OP and follow-ups were the very definition of tactless, and your claimed inability to see where offense to such might be drawn is very hard to grant in good faith.

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