How do Aethist think about veganism?
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29-04-2014, 06:28 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 05:51 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Why is eating meat wrong?


1.the price the animal pays to die far exceeds the good it provides in your diet. Its unfair and unjust to make an animal pay such a huge price for such a small pleasure.

2.Killing animals undermines human empathy and encourages the darkest aspects of our nature.

3.Raising live stock is environmentally irresponsible and ecologically inefficient

This is a semantic argument we are having. We are essentially arguing about whether or not it is possible for us to argue. I would very much like to move on. If possible, it would be great if you all could curb the insults and the personal attacks. Its starting to weigh on me quite a bit. Thanks Smile.

1. That is bs. If you are me meat is the most important. It has protein, and it is the safest way to get it. And how is it unfair? Its unfair when people fucking die from starvation. Its unfair when that homeless man has nothing good to eat. That is unfair. If my family was hungry and I had to kill a deer, the deer is dying, Im sniper that motherfucker fast. You can say eat that fucking soy bullshit but no it is bull shit. Legumes are bullshit peanuts are bullshit, I can even say nuts and seeds are bullshit. And apples and lettuce aren't going to keep my family full so the deer must die. Humans>every other animal, thats how it should be for us.

2. How? I eat meat and I dont hurt anyone. Worst I do is listen to creepypastas while playing gears of war. And if I remember correctly there was a group of people that blew up a building and threatened people lives with guns to free dogs. Ya pretty sures those people had lamb before the mission.

3. We did it to make our lives easier. Humans even been eating meat before we where even humans, hell even homo, Australopithecus even ate meat for christ sake. So we did it to make our lives easier when finding meat. Plus if we stop eating them they will eventually die or kill every other animal due to over competition. So eating animals that where artificial selected to be that way is a good idea. Dodgy

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29-04-2014, 06:46 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
Well this thread has been an interesting peek into the mind of a Vegan, their motivations and holier than thou attitudes.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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29-04-2014, 08:20 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 06:23 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 05:28 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  Why is eating meat wrong?


the price the animal pays to die far exceeds the good it provides in your diet. Its unfair and unjust to make an animal pay such a huge price for such a small pleasure.

Why??

That is still an inadequately defined and poorly explored statement.

Lets start with some simple truths.

Eating an animal necessitates killing that animal.
If an human hadn't killed that animal, that animal would have lived at least one instant longer than it did.
Therefore, eating an animal means denying that creature of at least some quantity of life. Life being living moments measured in seconds, hours, days, ect.

Now I am going to make an assumption. The lives of animals, the living moments I described above, have some value greater than zero.

Is is not unfair then to view eating an animal as an exchange of flesh for life. The human gets the commodity if meat, the animal pays the price of its life.

If we use a utilitarian line of moral reasoning, that 'transaction' would be just only so long as the enjoyment the person received from eating meat was equal or greater than the harm done to the animal in the act of killing it.

I take take the position that the animal payed a far higher price; ie that it was not an equal exchange life for meat.

I need to qualify one last thing. I made an implicit assertion that the only good meat does for people is the enjoyment experienced when eating it. I stick to my assertion that you don't require meat for survival or good health.

Quote:
(29-04-2014 05:28 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  Killing animals undermines human empathy and encourages the darkest aspects of our nature.

Why??

That is a ludicrously broad and loaded statement. I'm'a need more substantiation than your subjective personal feels on that one.

Your right, that premise cannot be adequately supported with good reasoning.

Quote:
(29-04-2014 05:28 PM)Magellan35 Wrote:  Raising live stock is environmentally irresponsible and ecologically inefficient.

Indeed. And yet, this is a practical viewpoint and not a principled one, insofar as raising livestock is a highly variable set of acts.
(cf hunting; sustainable, well-managed hunting by humans is indistinguishable, so far as the animal in question is concerned, from hunting by non-human animals)

Those are some good distinctions you made, and you were correct in assuming that when I sad "raising livestock" I meant in the context of factory farming.

There are some other simple truths that lend to the validity of that statement. It takes more energy to grow crops to feed to cows to eat for food then it does to grow crops to eat for food. This is a simple ecological fact; about ten percent of the calories cows consume translates to the amount of calories there are of cow to eat. Source, every biology text book in any high school or college classroom anywhere.

In reality, the exact math is a bit messy. Grass fed cows eat food humans can't eat, so certainly that would not count. However, more than 70% of beef, and almost 100% of chicken and pork are raised on factory farms. On factory farms animals eat some plant matter humans can't digest, but the vast majority of what they eat is corn, soybeans, barley, and other grains that are suitable for human consumption. Imagine if as a society we collective chose to feed that food to people instead of animals. More than a billion animals are raised ever year in the united states alone. Incidentally more than a billion people world wide live in abject poverty. I think it would be both practical and more human to feed people that food instead of livestock.
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29-04-2014, 08:48 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
I'll still eat cloned meat.
It tastes the same because it's exactly the same.

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29-04-2014, 09:12 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 07:36 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Even if we don't agree that eating meat is wrong, surely we can agree that "because it tastes good" is not a convincing argument right? Maybe it warrants further inspection?

Yes it is.

It may not be a convincing argument for the treatment of animals in our CAFO centers of suffering that have been adopted to meet the demands of an enormous consumption-driven population, but it's basically the only argument you need in favor of the simple act of eating meat.

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29-04-2014, 09:43 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 05:51 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Lets imagine I was trying to argue murder was wrong.

BULLSHIT. No, you are not going to lecture us on how you think eating meat is somehow "murder". Yes, you sorry peckerheads love to use that line of shit, but it's still a line of emotionalistic horseshit and nothing to do with reality. YOU already admit that you suffer over your choice to not eat meat. And we have already pointed out that you are starving yourself and especially your brain of vital nutrients. We were born into this life where something has to die for us to live. It's a dog eat dog world. The fact that you refuse to face the truth is YOUR problem, and you can't make it ours. FUCK OFF.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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29-04-2014, 10:00 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 08:20 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 06:23 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Why??

That is still an inadequately defined and poorly explored statement.

Lets start with some simple truths.

Eating an animal necessitates killing that animal.

That's how the world works, pussy. And if we didn't kill that animal and eat it, then a wolf or a bear or a lion or some other predator would. That's reality, moron -- something you don't have any concept of.


Quote:If an human hadn't killed that animal, that animal would have lived at least one instant longer than it did.

Maybe, maybe not. Cows are pretty fucking stupid and we keep them in captivity and protect them from other predators for their lifespan. Out in the wild they would be vulnerable to being killed and eaten by said other predators and would likely have lived a much shorter lifespan. You are making bald and hysterical assertions with absolutely no evidentiary support.


Quote:Therefore, eating an animal means denying that creature of at least some quantity of life. Life being living moments measured in seconds, hours, days, ect.

Not at all. WE, unlike many OTHER predators, don't eat our prey while it is still alive.


Quote:Now I am going to make an assumption. The lives of animals, the living moments I described above, have some value greater than zero.

"Value" is just an arbitrary mental construct. It means NOTHING here.


Quote:Is is not unfair then to view eating an animal as an exchange of flesh for life. The human gets the commodity if meat, the animal pays the price of its life.

Just like when any OTHER animal kills and eats the prey animal.



Quote:If we use a utilitarian line of moral reasoning, that 'transaction' would be just only so long as the enjoyment the person received from eating meat was equal or greater than the harm done to the animal in the act of killing it.


This is not a question of morality, asshole, and you can't make it one by repeating it ad nauseum.


Quote:I take take the position that the animal payed a far higher price; ie that it was not an equal exchange life for meat.

With livestock, we have raised, fed, and cared for that animal for its entire life. It has NEVER wanted for anything it needed. It has never gone hungry or faced teh prospect of starvation. It has benefited a HELL of a lot more than any animal in the wild.



Quote:I need to qualify one last thing. I made an implicit assertion that the only good meat does for people is the enjoyment experienced when eating it. I stick to my assertion that you don't require meat for survival or good health.


That is unsupported bullshit that the evidence puts the lie to. YOU have already admitted your abject ignorance, that you know fuck-all about nutrition. And you have the gall to troll here pretending you have the slightest idea what you are talking about.


Quote:
Quote:Why??

That is a ludicrously broad and loaded statement. I'm'a need more substantiation than your subjective personal feels on that one.

Your right, that premise cannot be adequately supported with good reasoning.

*You're


--- reasoning which you sorely lack.


Quote:
Quote:

Indeed. And yet, this is a practical viewpoint and not a principled one, insofar as raising livestock is a highly variable set of acts.



(cf hunting; sustainable, well-managed hunting by humans is indistinguishable, so far as the animal in question is concerned, from hunting by non-human animals)

Those are some good distinctions you made, and you were correct in assuming that when I sad "raising livestock" I meant in the context of factory farming.

Doesn't matter.


Quote:There are some other simple truths that lend to the validity of that statement. It takes more energy to grow crops to feed to cows to eat for food then it does to grow crops to eat for food.

You have not shown that. You have merely asserted it and you don't know it to be true, any more than you know anything about nutrition. All you know is how to repeat the bullshit your cult masters have told you.



Quote: This is a simple ecological fact; about ten percent of the calories cows consume translates to the amount of calories there are of cow to eat. Source, every biology text book in any high school or college classroom anywhere.

You have not shown that. You are merely parroting your cult masters' party line.



Quote:In reality, the exact math is a bit messy. Grass fed cows eat food humans can't eat, so certainly that would not count. However, more than 70% of beef, and almost 100% of chicken and pork are raised on factory farms. On factory farms animals eat some plant matter humans can't digest, but the vast majority of what they eat is corn, soybeans, barley, and other grains that are suitable for human consumption. Imagine if as a society we collective chose to feed that food to people instead of animals. More than a billion animals are raised ever year in the united states alone. Incidentally more than a billion people world wide live in abject poverty. I think it would be both practical and more human to feed people that food instead of livestock.

You continue to willfully and disingenuously ignore the fact that meat provides vital nutrients YOU CAN'T GET WITHOUT IT.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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29-04-2014, 10:29 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 10:36 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 10:31 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  You have neither made a valid point, nor avoided offending people. You have come here, pretensions held high, to tell us how morally and rationally superior vegans are and then pretended to mean no offense. You further insult our intelligence by being an utter hypocrite, saying "Here, listen to all the reasons I'm right, but don't you dare tell me how I may be wrong"

I don't agree with Taq's tactics often, but on this one, I'm with him.

It difficult to have a discussion about veganism without offending people. The whole topic has a moral premise. I can't say I am right without implying that you are wrong, I can only try and put it in the most respectful cordial way possible. The alternative is I don't argue my point at all. This is an option I often elect but not here in this thread today. Please know I respect you and everyone else here and only want to try and spark a discussion.

The deer herds in the U.S. are at an all time high - higher than when the Pilgrims invaded North America.

They destroy the apple trees in my orchard, the plants in my gardens, and shed Lyme Disease-bearing ticks.

They get shot; they get eaten. I suppose I could instead just leave them to rot. Consider

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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29-04-2014, 11:02 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
The issue of meat eating isn't a black or white one. I understand people that feel compassion for animals. The way animals are treated in slaughter houses is horrible. In another hand humans are animals too. Eat meating is part of the human diet .
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29-04-2014, 11:35 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
Is this quote from Gandhi true.

After a long time being vegan he is reported as saying.
""  "The crores of India today get neither milk nor ghee nor butter, nor even buttermilk. No wonder that mortality figures are on the increase and there is a lack of energy in the people. It would appear as if man is really unable to sustain life without either meat or milk and milk products. Anyone who deceives people in this regard or countenances the fraud is an enemy of India."

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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