How do Aethist think about veganism?
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30-04-2014, 11:18 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(30-04-2014 10:39 PM)sporehux Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 10:34 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  Son, are you fucking retarded?

I can relate to them a little, they do eat the food my food eats.

There's sum big-ass Geeses at Tha Lake tonight, Imagonnna nail me one with me crossbow and fix me sum yummy-ass gumbeaux tonite. All u sorry bitchez just wish u cud be me. Heh.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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30-04-2014, 11:51 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
OP, I dearly hope you simply don't realize how your stated intentions conflict with your conduct. Your manner (meaning, your tone) is very polite, very even, and I like that. Your manner also jives nicely with your *stated* intentions to not be condescending, insulting, etc.

Your words, though! Oh darling, your words are the polar opposite, and it is creepy as all hell! It's like what you're saying isn't really what you're saying, and it's hard to know which side of you is really YOU! I WANT to believe the nice side is really you, but the knife doesn't cut any less by how pretty the handle is.

I've seen this sort of thing before, most notably in my ex. It's horrible. It also puts the victims at a disadvantage, because to speak out would mean to speak against a person who is seeming so nice, so polite, so professional! And yet... the words! All the honey in the world cannot cover up some things. I will not exhaust myself in repeating all the examples that have already been given.


I will address certain things in the thread and give my own stance, such as it is. It is only my stance, and some of it (or much of it) may be more emotional than scientific, and it's subject to change without notice.
1. I do agree that it is wrong to abuse animals.
2. I do not agree that killing for food qualifies as abuse, PROVIDED that one does not go out of their way to make the animal's death worse than necessary. Just get it done and eat.
3. We are omnivores, and I find no shame in eating as one.
4. No, I do not think that other animals ought to have the same rights as humans in a human society, unless they somehow become human. This is our society. A lion society is a pride. A wolf society is a pack. A bee society is a hive. And we have ours. We can grant certain other animals preferred status (I love my cockatiel and my cat), but they don't get voting rights. Well, beyond loud obnoxious meowing to make make me do his bidding. Sometimes he's more like the majority vote.
5. I do enjoy meat. I enjoy the taste of meat that is prepared to my personal liking. This is not going to change anytime soon.
6. I do consider SUSTAINING and MAINTAINING my health a good reason to eat meat. Not just as isolated "incidents" to bring me practically from the brink of death (i.e. not just to "save my life").
7. What animals I have will be treated well, whether that animal is intended for meat or not.
8. I do have a moral stance on treatment of animals. Mine does not agree with yours. I'm not looking down on you for your stance. I WOULD look down on you for your expression of it, though.
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30-04-2014, 11:54 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(30-04-2014 11:51 PM)Charis Wrote:  3. We are omnivores, and I find no shame in eating as one.

Pfff, Omnivores, the shit people eat when there is no meat.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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30-04-2014, 11:57 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
I would love some meat right now.... and not strictly for eating.....

Angel
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01-05-2014, 12:03 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(30-04-2014 11:57 PM)Charis Wrote:  I would love some meat right now.... and not strictly for eating.....

Angel

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Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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01-05-2014, 12:43 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(30-04-2014 11:57 PM)Charis Wrote:  I would love some meat right now.... and not strictly for eating.....

Angel

I'll be in my bunk.


Oh, and you're invited. Thumbsup

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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01-05-2014, 01:04 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(01-05-2014 12:43 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(30-04-2014 11:57 PM)Charis Wrote:  I would love some meat right now.... and not strictly for eating.....

Angel

I'll be in my bunk.

Oh, and you're invited. Thumbsup

I'll be in my bed
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01-05-2014, 10:01 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(30-04-2014 11:51 PM)Charis Wrote:  OP, I dearly hope you simply don't realize how your stated intentions conflict with your conduct. Your manner (meaning, your tone) is very polite, very even, and I like that. Your manner also jives nicely with your *stated* intentions to not be condescending, insulting, etc.

Your words, though! Oh darling, your words are the polar opposite, and it is creepy as all hell! It's like what you're saying isn't really what you're saying, and it's hard to know which side of you is really YOU! I WANT to believe the nice side is really you, but the knife doesn't cut any less by how pretty the handle is.

I've seen this sort of thing before, most notably in my ex. It's horrible. It also puts the victims at a disadvantage, because to speak out would mean to speak against a person who is seeming so nice, so polite, so professional! And yet... the words! All the honey in the world cannot cover up some things. I will not exhaust myself in repeating all the examples that have already been given.

Thank you for your comments. I hope you and everybody else knows that I still do have the utmost respect for yourself and the members of the community, and my goal all along has been to spark a civil and rational discussion.

I am genuinely curious, I do want to know what people think, and I also want to be able to challenge them on it and ask them if it makes sense. It goes both ways for me. Your welcome to challenge me on my position also (and many people have).

As to the perceived venom and condescension in my words... its a difficult subject to talk about. What is the best way to broach a moral topic without making people feel judged? I have a clear stance that I want to take, and what I would like is to do is support that stance with reason. As far as I am concerned, judgement doesn't need to be a part of that equation. I would really prefer to just objectively evaluate them with all of you with the same tone and mutual respect one would use when discussing any other kind of philosophy .

Quote:I will address certain things in the thread and give my own stance, such as it is. It is only my stance, and some of it (or much of it) may be more emotional than scientific, and it's subject to change without notice.

I am very curious to know what you think. I appreciate that your opinions may change, and given the topic I can appreciate why emotion might play a part in your argument.

Quote:1. I do agree that it is wrong to abuse animals.
2. I do not agree that killing for food qualifies as abuse, PROVIDED that one does not go out of their way to make the animal's death worse than necessary. Just get it done and eat.

This stance I very clear, and I think another way of putting it, other than how you stated it above, is that killing animals is not wrong because is does not qualify as abuse.

Killing animals doesn't have to be cruel. The question I would ask then, in the absence of cruelty, under what circumstances is it okay to kill animals? Can kill them indiscriminately and without cause? If its acceptable to kill them for food but not to kill them in other circumstances, I would have to ask, why is that?

Lastly, would you consider the conditions in factory farms to be abusive?

Quote:3. We are omnivores, and I find no shame in eating as one.
4. No, I do not think that other animals ought to have the same rights as humans in a human society, unless they somehow become human. This is our society. A lion society is a pride. A wolf society is a pack. A bee society is a hive. And we have ours. We can grant certain other animals preferred status (I love my cockatiel and my cat), but they don't get voting rights. Well, beyond loud obnoxious meowing to make make me do his bidding. Sometimes he's more like the majority vote.

That's too cute Tongue . I have three cats. I may pay the bills, but these animals run my house lol.

I would not argue that animals deserve the same rights as people either, or even that animals rights are more important then peoples rights. My argument is that animals lives and well being are worthy of moral consideration.

Quote:5. I do enjoy meat. I enjoy the taste of meat that is prepared to my personal liking. This is not going to change anytime soon.

Hasn't changed for me either! I didn't stop eating it because it stopped tasting good No .

Quote:6. I do consider SUSTAINING and MAINTAINING my health a good reason to eat meat. Not just as isolated "incidents" to bring me practically from the brink of death (i.e. not just to "save my life")

Would you mind elaborating on this point? When you say sustaining and maintaining your health, are you implying that the nutrition in a vegan diet is inferior to an omni diet?

Quote:7. What animals I have will be treated well, whether that animal is intended for meat or not.

I am very glad to hear that. I think most of us feel that our animals deserve to be treated well, which is a good thing.

Quote:8. I do have a moral stance on treatment of animals. Mine does not agree with yours. I'm not looking down on you for your stance. I WOULD look down on you for your expression of it, though.

Would you mind expanding on this point? What about my expression do you find reproachable?

Again, thank you for your comments and I do hope you interpreted no disrespect or condescension from my responses.
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01-05-2014, 11:05 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(30-04-2014 11:51 PM)Charis Wrote:  I do have a moral stance on treatment of animals. Mine does not agree with yours. I'm not looking down on you for your stance. I WOULD look down on you for your expression of it, though.

Why would you "look down" on someone for expressing something you don't agree with? That's no different than some christee thinking that atheists just need to shut up and crawl back into the woodwork. The guy is a vegan so what? What he wants to do to or with his body is his fucking problem.

As well, MichaelT - many people here are happy to say bon chance with your personal preferences however, expecting anyone to fall into a recruitment line to become something they are not, is highly unlikely.

Many are still just extricating themselves from the biggest con game in history and many here are simply tired of someone trying to think for them. The newly skeptical can be pretty staunch in their skepticism; many do not take kindly to the notion of anyone trying to lead them back into some restrictive box after they've struggled to free their own minds.

Personally, I'm vegetarian. I have my reasons for being vegetarian and I have no desire to "help everyone around me to become vegetarian".

Emulation is a choice ... manipulation is unscrupulous.

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01-05-2014, 11:30 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(01-05-2014 10:01 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Would you mind elaborating on this point? When you say sustaining and maintaining your health, are you implying that the nutrition in a vegan diet is inferior to an omni diet?

The natural way for humans to eat is a well proven combination of items that have allowed us to flourish for many many centuries.

The Vegan diet relies on information available about food at this time. No matter how well thought out the diet may be, it relies on the state of human knowledge about foodstuffs.

That is what I question - I maintain that we haven't even scratched the surface of what there may be to know about foods.

I would not gamble my health and life on the assumption that humans have discovered everything that can be known about food.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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