How do Aethist think about veganism?
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01-05-2014, 11:35 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
Whatever happened to veganism being the "natural evolution of rational thought and a logical, evidence based approach to food"? You have yet to show us any of that evidence. Consider

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01-05-2014, 11:46 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(01-05-2014 11:30 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(01-05-2014 10:01 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Would you mind elaborating on this point? When you say sustaining and maintaining your health, are you implying that the nutrition in a vegan diet is inferior to an omni diet?

The natural way for humans to eat is a well proven combination of items that have allowed us to flourish for many many centuries.

The Vegan diet relies on information available about food at this time. No matter how well thought out the diet may be, it relies on the state of human knowledge about foodstuffs.

That is what I question - I maintain that we haven't even scratched the surface of what there may be to know about foods.

I would not gamble my health and life on the assumption that humans have discovered everything that can be known about food.

This is an argument from ignorance, similar to how theist support god created the universe from the enigmas of the big bang. There are six million vegans living in the US today, if they are missing something crucial we might not yet know about it, but it seems unlikely. I understand your point and agree with you that much about nutrition is not understood. It may be the case we learn more about meat and its role in our diets. There is no evidence to suggest at this time that meat is required though, and we should base our reasoning on our best, current understanding.
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01-05-2014, 11:49 AM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2014 11:55 AM by Michael_Tadlock.)
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(01-05-2014 11:35 AM)Vosur Wrote:  Whatever happened to veganism being the "natural evolution of rational thought and a logical, evidence based approach to food"? You have yet to show us any of that evidence. Consider

That's a fair point. I made some points about ecology, if you can be patient with me I can provide some external source to support that claim. I could site many vegan studies exposing the virtues of the diet also, but I want to stick to the principle that vegan diets are good and adequate without making comparisons to other diets.
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01-05-2014, 12:38 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(01-05-2014 11:46 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  There is no evidence to suggest at this time that meat is required though, and we should base our reasoning on our best, current understanding.

You go ahead and place your life in the hands of the current understanding of nutrition.

I'm going to place mine in the hands of thousands of years of evolution.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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01-05-2014, 01:03 PM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2014 01:21 PM by Charis.)
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
Kim, I probably didn't articulate that very clearly. I would not look down on him or others for the fact of their expression, but for the manner in which they do it.

Michael, others who have taken issue rather vocally and rather specifically have voiced my opinion on how you have come across so many times in this thread. They did it very extensively, and it would be redundant for me to simply repeat what they have already said. I can only say.... keep such insinuations out of your posts. You know what has been found upsetting. It has been shown in great detail. If you truly wish to not offend, then you now know how to prevent it. Your tone is lovely. Your insinuations not so much. That needs to change or you will continue to offend, and now, since you are well aware of it, you will be doing so deliberately.

I will not expound right now on the specifics of the stance I take, except to add that, no, I don't think we should "kill indiscriminately," though that view is also implied in my list. I suspect that anything I say will be rephrased, re-defined and used to trip me up, and I'm simply not going to participate.
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01-05-2014, 01:09 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
I'm still not certain why atheism and being vegetarian coincide. "What do atheists think about veganism" is like asking, "What do atheists think about 91% isopropyl alcohol vs 99% isopropyl alcohol?" or "What do atheists think about tuna caserole?" as a lack of belief in a deity has nothing to do with my stance on tuna, isopropyl alcohol or whether or not I eat vegetarian or meat.

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01-05-2014, 01:15 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
It may possibly coincide due to a very different stance on mankind's relationship with the other beings on Earth. Atheists view us as another animal inhabiting the same earth and often using the same resources. Christianity (at least the fundamental sort) views us as basically masters of the rest of creation. In Genesis, people are told to subdue it, etc. Christianity also looks down on vegetarianism as a bit of an insult toward God and his creation. Due to the polar opposites here, it could be argued (successfully in some circles, unsuccessfully in others) that veganism, or at least vegetarianism, would/should be a natural moral conclusion of atheism. Depending on one's view, this conclusion might be seen as a natural result or as a logical fallacy.
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01-05-2014, 01:26 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(01-05-2014 01:15 PM)Charis Wrote:  It may possibly coincide due to a very different stance on mankind's relationship with the other beings on Earth. Atheists view us as another animal inhabiting the same earth and often using the same resources. Christianity (at least the fundamental sort) views us as basically masters of the rest of creation. In Genesis, people are told to subdue it, etc. Christianity also looks down on vegetarianism as a bit of an insult toward God and his creation. Due to the polar opposites here, it could be argued (successfully in some circles, unsuccessfully in others) that veganism, or at least vegetarianism, would/should be a natural moral conclusion of atheism. Depending on one's view, this conclusion might be seen as a natural result or as a logical fallacy.

Hmmm interesting. You know, you make a very good point. I do hear it often that Christians tend to say, "god put us above ALL the animals." and creates a bit of an ego, ok, a huge ego. So that is a fair point. I suppose if someone thinks that creatures are "put here for us" then their consumption is "natural, since they were put here for us" etc etc. In other words, disregard value of other life simply because "god put us above all creatures." So I suppose I can see where you're going with that. I hadn't considered that point.

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01-05-2014, 06:28 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(01-05-2014 12:38 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(01-05-2014 11:46 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  There is no evidence to suggest at this time that meat is required though, and we should base our reasoning on our best, current understanding.

You go ahead and place your life in the hands of the current understanding of nutrition.

I'm going to place mine in the hands of thousands of years of evolution.

Which evolution do you want to take about? Meat eating in our ancestral line is likely very new, maybe a million years or so. Our pre-meat eating ancestor got along just fine right. Look at some of our closes genetic cousins. Chimps, apes, and orangutans, just to name a few primates, get along just fine without meat.

Look at the evidence. There are literally hundred of thousands vegans in the US alone who have been vegans for decades, with no documented physical maladies as a result. For hundred of years Buddhist monks and Asia and Hindus in India have been living on vegetarian or sometimes vegan diets. This is generations of people and millions of individuals forgoing meat for literally the entirety of their lives.

Think about what we do know about nutrition. Vitamins A, B, C, and the rest, all have excellent plant sources. Fats and steroids like cholesterols and omega 3 all have plant sources. Minerals we need like iron, calcium, zinc, and magnesium all have plant sources.

If you look at the data we do have vegans, what you find is vastly superior life expectancy and health outcomes, not inferior.

"A 2009 report published in the journal Nutrition Reviews summed up several discoveries. For example, researchers found that vegetarians and vegans were about half as likely to develop type 2 diabetes as other adults. Further, in clinical trials of diabetics, a low-fat vegan regimen actually improved blood-sugar control better than the diets traditionally prescribed to patients." -Huffington Post

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/10...74525.html

Compared to the average man, a vegan man lives almost ten years longer, a vegan woman more than six years longer.

http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research...inds-study

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2013/06June/Pages...espan.aspx

Heart disease, according to the center for disease control, kills one in four Americans in the United States, and a conservative, collaborative study finds that vegans are 74% as likely, or inversely 36% less likely, to develop heart disease:

http://www.cdc.gov/heartdisease/facts.htm

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/70/3/516s.full

If you really invest in your health and actively seek out variety in your diet, dramatically limit your fat, and choose whole grains and unprocessed sugars over commercial alternatives, then you will very probably do even better. Notice meat is not part of that proscription. The reason is you don't need it.

Now I will be the first to say there are confounding variables in these studies, and that it is really hard to isolate diet as a variable. That being said, the evidence is overwhelmingly clear, vegans do just fine and there is no reason at all to believe vegans are unhealthy.
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01-05-2014, 07:01 PM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2014 07:05 PM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(01-05-2014 11:49 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  blah blah blah... I could site many vegan studies blah blah blah...


*cite, moron.

Just like citing the Holey Babble to "prove" the existence of Gawd. Trot out the snake oil salesman who sold you the poison to tell us all how wonderful it is. Hobo


(01-05-2014 11:46 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(01-05-2014 11:30 AM)Dom Wrote:  The natural way for humans to eat is a well proven combination of items that have allowed us to flourish for many many centuries.

The Vegan diet relies on information available about food at this time. No matter how well thought out the diet may be, it relies on the state of human knowledge about foodstuffs.

That is what I question - I maintain that we haven't even scratched the surface of what there may be to know about foods.

I would not gamble my health and life on the assumption that humans have discovered everything that can be known about food.

This is an argument from ignorance, similar to how theist support god created the universe from the enigmas of the big bang.

Bullshit. We have EVIDENCE that eating an omnivore diet keeps one healthy and that your your batshit cult diet is detrimental to one's health. I and others here have seen it firsthand as well.



Quote: blah blah blah.... There is no evidence to suggest at this time that meat is required though, ...blah blah blah...

Bullshit, you lying cunt.

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