How do Aethist think about veganism?
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01-05-2014, 07:06 PM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2014 07:34 PM by kim.)
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
Hmmmmyes.... Consider

Who is to say that it is not the give and take of our previous vegetarianism - which provided us with miles of intestine - as well as our carnivore ancestors who provided us with our highly developed brains? I think I'm simply trying to say, it's never just one thing.

I think if one either becomes lactose or gluten intolerant, one seriously considers just how much humans continue to evolve. There isn't really much we are able to do about it as a group. Individually, it may be a question of choice but still ... the future is, and will probably remain, unwritten no matter what might become consciously or socially adopted.

Evolution is a behemoth - a veritable juggernaut of unpredictability. I for one am glad I'm on bored at this time... I can make my own individual choices. Just so nothing in my genetic past doesn't sneak up too fast on me.... "damn dirty apes", that we are. Wink

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01-05-2014, 07:10 PM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2014 07:15 PM by rampant.a.i..)
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(01-05-2014 06:28 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(01-05-2014 12:38 PM)Dom Wrote:  You go ahead and place your life in the hands of the current understanding of nutrition.

I'm going to place mine in the hands of thousands of years of evolution.

Which evolution do you want to take about? Meat eating in our ancestral line is likely very new, maybe a million years or so. Our pre-meat eating ancestor got along just fine right.

So your argument is that we should switch from the diet we've evolved to have over millions of years, to match what a different ancestral species survived eating: because they survived "just fine" on the diet they evolved to survive on, presumably over a million years or so.


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01-05-2014, 07:25 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(01-05-2014 06:28 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Look at the evidence. There are literally hundred of thousands vegans in the US alone who have been vegans for decades, with no documented physical maladies as a result. For hundred of years Buddhist monks and Asia and Hindus in India have been living on vegetarian or sometimes vegan diets. This is generations of people and millions of individuals forgoing meat for literally the entirety of their lives.

Think about what we do know about nutrition. Vitamins A, B, C, and the rest, all have excellent plant sources. Fats and steroids like cholesterols and omega 3 all have plant sources. Minerals we need like iron, calcium, zinc, and magnesium all have plant sources.

If you look at the data we do have vegans, what you find is vastly superior life expectancy and health outcomes, not inferior.

"A 2009 report published in the journal Nutrition Reviews summed up several discoveries. For example, researchers found that vegetarians and vegans were about half as likely to develop type 2 diabetes as other adults. Further, in clinical trials of diabetics, a low-fat vegan regimen actually improved blood-sugar control better than the diets traditionally prescribed to patients." -Huffington Post

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/10...74525.html

Compared to the average man, a vegan man lives almost ten years longer, a vegan woman more than six years longer.

http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research...inds-study

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2013/06June/Pages...espan.aspx

Heart disease, according to the center for disease control, kills one in four Americans in the United States, and a conservative, collaborative study finds that vegans are 74% as likely, or inversely 36% less likely, to develop heart disease:

http://www.cdc.gov/heartdisease/facts.htm

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/70/3/516s.full

If you really invest in your health and actively seek out variety in your diet, dramatically limit your fat, and choose whole grains and unprocessed sugars over commercial alternatives, then you will very probably do even better. Notice meat is not part of that proscription. The reason is you don't need it.

Now I will be the first to say there are confounding variables in these studies, and that it is really hard to isolate diet as a variable. That being said, the evidence is overwhelmingly clear, vegans do just fine and there is no reason at all to believe vegans are unhealthy.

Have you read The China Study?

http://www.socakajak-klub.si/mma/The%20C...116065942/

Apparently experiments show you can turn on and off some diseases by limiting your meat intake.

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01-05-2014, 07:35 PM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2014 07:53 PM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(01-05-2014 06:28 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(01-05-2014 12:38 PM)Dom Wrote:  You go ahead and place your life in the hands of the current understanding of nutrition.

I'm going to place mine in the hands of thousands of years of evolution.

Which evolution do you want to take about? Meat eating in our ancestral line is likely very new, maybe a million years or so.

You are blowing smoke out of your ass. Hominids were butchering animals and eating meat at least 2-1/2 million years ago, back in the dawn of our species. Tool marks on fossilized bones in the Middle Awash of Ethiopia prove it.

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/print/...reeve-text


In 1996, the team uncovered antelope, horse, and other mammal bones showing the telltale cut marks of stone tools—at 2.5 million years, one of the earliest signs of tool use.

"The marks on the inside of one antelope jaw showed they cut out the tongue," White said. "So we not only know they were making tools, we also know what they were doing with them—extracting nutrition from large mammal carcasses."



And here's some meat for your nutrition-starved brain, from the very same article:


By this time, the hominid lineage had forked into two branches. One branch of the genus Australopithecus developed specializations for eating tough tubers and other hard foods—huge jaw muscles and massive back teeth. The other branch—hominids with increasingly smaller back teeth, more lightly built, long-legged bodies, and increasingly larger brains—led to us. Bigger brains are useful, of course, but they are also expensive to run. They require high-calorie foods—the kind you get by, say, scavenging the kills of lions and smashing up the bones for their marrow.



Quote: Our pre-meat eating ancestor got along just fine right.

You don't know what the fuck you are talking about.


Quote:Look at some of our closes genetic cousins. Chimps,


[Image: chimpeat-300x215.jpg]

[Image: pobs_fifimeat.jpg]





Quote:apes,

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/200...124416.htm

http://www.janegoodall.org/blogs/gorilla...eaters-too





Quote:and orangutans,






Quote:just to name a few primates, get along just fine without meat. Look at the evidence.

Yeah, look at the fucking evidence. You are chock-full of shit.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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01-05-2014, 07:43 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(01-05-2014 06:28 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  For hundred of years Buddhist monks and Asia and Hindus in India have been living on vegetarian or sometimes vegan diets. This is generations of people and millions of individuals forgoing meat for literally the entirety of their lives.

BULLSHIT. Buddhist monks eat whatever the fuck people give them on their alms rounds, period, including meat. And even so, their diets tend to be severely lacking. The Buddha himself ate meat. You don't have a fucking clue what you are talking about.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


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01-05-2014, 07:46 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
[Image: gorilla-not-vegan.001-001.jpg]

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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01-05-2014, 07:50 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
Uh... yes. I wasn't going say you were chock full of shit, Michael T... not in those exact words, anyway. Dodgy

Michael T, you do seem to have some incorrect presuppositions about chimps and apes... many do eat meat. They also kill each other for seemingly no damn reason; more proof they are indeed our very close cousins. Undecided

One of my heros, doctor Jane Goodall reported a great deal of this way back in the '60s... where have you been young friend!? Dr Goodall has written several books on the subject of chimps and apes... their diet and behaviors. Wonderful reading. Shy

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01-05-2014, 07:54 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(01-05-2014 07:25 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(01-05-2014 06:28 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Look at the evidence. There are literally hundred of thousands vegans in the US alone who have been vegans for decades, with no documented physical maladies as a result. For hundred of years Buddhist monks and Asia and Hindus in India have been living on vegetarian or sometimes vegan diets. This is generations of people and millions of individuals forgoing meat for literally the entirety of their lives.

Think about what we do know about nutrition. Vitamins A, B, C, and the rest, all have excellent plant sources. Fats and steroids like cholesterols and omega 3 all have plant sources. Minerals we need like iron, calcium, zinc, and magnesium all have plant sources.

If you look at the data we do have vegans, what you find is vastly superior life expectancy and health outcomes, not inferior.

"A 2009 report published in the journal Nutrition Reviews summed up several discoveries. For example, researchers found that vegetarians and vegans were about half as likely to develop type 2 diabetes as other adults. Further, in clinical trials of diabetics, a low-fat vegan regimen actually improved blood-sugar control better than the diets traditionally prescribed to patients." -Huffington Post

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/10...74525.html

Compared to the average man, a vegan man lives almost ten years longer, a vegan woman more than six years longer.

http://www.nutraingredients.com/Research...inds-study

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2013/06June/Pages...espan.aspx

Heart disease, according to the center for disease control, kills one in four Americans in the United States, and a conservative, collaborative study finds that vegans are 74% as likely, or inversely 36% less likely, to develop heart disease:

http://www.cdc.gov/heartdisease/facts.htm

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/70/3/516s.full

If you really invest in your health and actively seek out variety in your diet, dramatically limit your fat, and choose whole grains and unprocessed sugars over commercial alternatives, then you will very probably do even better. Notice meat is not part of that proscription. The reason is you don't need it.

Now I will be the first to say there are confounding variables in these studies, and that it is really hard to isolate diet as a variable. That being said, the evidence is overwhelmingly clear, vegans do just fine and there is no reason at all to believe vegans are unhealthy.

Have you read The China Study?

http://www.socakajak-klub.si/mma/The%20C...116065942/

Apparently experiments show you can turn on and off some diseases by limiting your meat intake.

I haven't read the china study, but I have heard a lot about it. For those who are not familiar, china conducted the largest health census in history sometime in the 70s(?), giving detailed reports of people, their diets, and their health outcomes. The study is really complex and it would be incorrect for me to say I understand all its consequences, but the data definitely showed that people in china who ate less meat lived longer and suffered less frequently from many diseases.

We can continue to go round and round on the nutrition if you all want. All I want to prove is that veganism is at least as healthy as eating a diet including meat. If you believe the research, it is more than at least as healthy, its a whole lot more. Most importantly, no evidence what so ever that meat is required for long life OR good health.
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01-05-2014, 07:58 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(01-05-2014 07:50 PM)kim Wrote:  Uh... yes. I wasn't going say you were chock full of shit, Michael T... not in those exact words, anyway. Dodgy

Michael T, you do seem to have some incorrect presuppositions about chimps and apes... many do eat meat. They also kill each other for seemingly no damn reason; more proof they are indeed our very close cousins. Undecided

One of my heros, doctor Jane Goodall reported a great deal of this way back in the '60s... where have you been young friend!? Dr Goodall has written several books on the subject of chimps and apes... their diet and behaviors. Wonderful reading. Shy

i am a aware that chimps and other primates eat meat... very seldomly and infrequently anyway. It would be far from correct to concluded that meat is at all a significant part of their diet, because it isn't. Chimps in particular do eat a fair amount of insects, and if you want to say that counts I guess you can. If there is nutrition in meat that we definitely need, then it seems unlikely that nutrition is found in both beatles and ants as well as cows and pigs. Could be wrong on that one, and if I am do me the kindness of providing any evidence that there is.
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01-05-2014, 08:08 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(01-05-2014 07:54 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  All I want to prove is that veganism is at least as healthy as eating a diet including meat.

And we have pointed out that the opposite is true.


Quote: If you believe the research, it is more than at least as healthy, its a whole lot more.

[Image: snakeoil.jpg]



Quote:Most importantly, no evidence what so ever that meat is required for long life OR good health.

Oh, and by the way, asshole, since you are making wild-ass claims about Buddhist monks that you don't know fuck-all about, the fucking Dalai Lama eats meat.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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