How do Aethist think about veganism?
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01-05-2014, 08:08 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(01-05-2014 06:28 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(01-05-2014 12:38 PM)Dom Wrote:  You go ahead and place your life in the hands of the current understanding of nutrition.

I'm going to place mine in the hands of thousands of years of evolution.

Which evolution do you want to take about? Meat eating in our ancestral line is likely very new, maybe a million years or so.

The most recent million of years will do fine for me, thanks. Tongue

I don't much think that one person alive today can "de-volve" a million years to restore a physical system that is vegan.

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01-05-2014, 08:09 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(01-05-2014 07:58 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(01-05-2014 07:50 PM)kim Wrote:  Uh... yes. I wasn't going say you were chock full of shit, Michael T... not in those exact words, anyway. Dodgy

Michael T, you do seem to have some incorrect presuppositions about chimps and apes... many do eat meat. They also kill each other for seemingly no damn reason; more proof they are indeed our very close cousins. Undecided

One of my heros, doctor Jane Goodall reported a great deal of this way back in the '60s... where have you been young friend!? Dr Goodall has written several books on the subject of chimps and apes... their diet and behaviors. Wonderful reading. Shy

i am a aware that chimps and other primates eat meat... very seldomly and infrequently anyway. It would be far from correct to concluded that meat is at all a significant part of their diet, because it isn't. Chimps in particular do eat a fair amount of insects, and if you want to say that counts I guess you can. If there is nutrition in meat that we definitely need, then it seems unlikely that nutrition is found in both beatles and ants as well as cows and pigs. Could be wrong on that one, and if I am do me the kindness of providing any evidence that there is.

Well no, you'd have to eat more cows and pigs to get the same protein content from an equal weight in bugs.

So are you saying we should eat vegetables and bugs, or enough meat to balance the lack of bugs in our diet?

Would you consider either diet vegan, as you claimed our ancestral diets were?

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01-05-2014, 08:11 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(01-05-2014 07:58 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(01-05-2014 07:50 PM)kim Wrote:  Uh... yes. I wasn't going say you were chock full of shit, Michael T... not in those exact words, anyway. Dodgy

Michael T, you do seem to have some incorrect presuppositions about chimps and apes... many do eat meat. They also kill each other for seemingly no damn reason; more proof they are indeed our very close cousins. Undecided

One of my heros, doctor Jane Goodall reported a great deal of this way back in the '60s... where have you been young friend!? Dr Goodall has written several books on the subject of chimps and apes... their diet and behaviors. Wonderful reading. Shy

i am a aware that chimps and other primates eat meat... very seldomly and infrequently anyway. It would be far from correct to concluded that meat is at all a significant part of their diet, because it isn't.

That is a lie.


Quote: Chimps in particular do eat a fair amount of insects, and if you want to say that counts I guess you can.

It's killing a living thing, isn't it. YOU are making your case on the MORAL GROUNDS of it being "wrong" to kill living things.

Quote:If there is nutrition in meat that we definitely need, then it seems unlikely that nutrition is found in both beatles and ants as well as cows and pigs. Could be wrong on that one,

Aaaaaaaaaaand once again you admit that you are talking right out of your ass.


Quote:and if I am do me the kindness of providing any evidence that there is.

Fuck you -- YOU provide evidence to back up YOUR wild-ass claims.

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01-05-2014, 08:19 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(01-05-2014 08:08 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(01-05-2014 06:28 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Which evolution do you want to take about? Meat eating in our ancestral line is likely very new, maybe a million years or so.

The most recent million of years will do fine for me, thanks. Tongue

I don't much think that one person alive today can "de-volve" a million years to restore a physical system that is vegan.

It's sort of a strange Lamarckish view isn't it?

"I've decided after millions of years, I no longer desire the diet I've evolved to subsist on! Therefore, I shall become vegan, and my children will be herbivores."

“It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts.”
― Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, Sherlock Holmes
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01-05-2014, 08:21 PM (This post was last modified: 01-05-2014 08:27 PM by Chas.)
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(01-05-2014 06:28 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(01-05-2014 12:38 PM)Dom Wrote:  You go ahead and place your life in the hands of the current understanding of nutrition.

I'm going to place mine in the hands of thousands of years of evolution.

Which evolution do you want to take about? Meat eating in our ancestral line is likely very new, maybe a million years or so. Our pre-meat eating ancestor got along just fine right. Look at some of our closes genetic cousins. Chimps, apes, and orangutans, just to name a few primates, get along just fine without meat.

Except chimps eat meat.





And:
Quote:There are very few frugivores amongst the mammals in general, and primates in particular. The only apes that are predominantly fruit eaters (gibbons and siamangs) are atypical for apes in many behavioral and ecological respects and eat substantial amounts of vegetation. Orangutans are similar, with no observations in the wild of eating meat.

Gorillas are more typically vegetarian, with less emphasis on fruit. Several years ago a very elegant study was done on the relationship between body size and diet in primates (and some other mammal groups). The only primates on the list with pure diets were the very small species (which are entirely insectivorous) and the largest (which specialize in vegetarian diet). However, the spectrum of dietary preferences reflect the daily food intake needs of each body size and the relative availability of food resources in a tropical forest. Our closest relatives among the apes are the chimpanzees (i.e., anatomically, behaviorally, genetically, and evolutionarily), who frequently kill and eat other mammals (including other primates).

And what our predecessor species ate has no bearing whatsoever - they were not Homo sapiens.

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01-05-2014, 08:48 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
The evolutionary argument is irrelevant if it doesn't demonstrate a necessity for meat. Examine the evidence. Arguments from ignorance are not valid arguments. Just because we don't know everything about nutrition doesn't mean that we need meat, you have to back a positive claim like "meat is necessary for our survival" with evidence. There is no evidence for that. Quite the contrary even. I have linked three academic, medical studies supporting the claim that veganism is healthy and effective at preventing, sometimes even treating, diseases, and another member linked the china study which demonstrates a whole lot more. What more proof, what more evidence would be required to persuade you?

If we agree that veganism is healthy, hardly a bold claim, it doesn't even prove my vegan argument, it only proves its possible to be a healthy vegan.
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01-05-2014, 09:02 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
The 2nd part of this article is an interesting place to start a dietary update of primates.

"Many primate species once considered herbivorous are now known to expand the animal-matter portion of their diet to high levels when it is possible to do so...
Insect food is the predominant animal matter resource for primates. Insects are eaten by all extant apes, i.e., chimpanzees (e.g., Lawick-Goodall 1968), orang-utans (Gladikas-Brindamour1), gorillas (Fossey2), gibbons (Chivers 1972, R.L. Tilson3), and the siamang (Chivers 1972). The amount of insect matter in most primate diets is small, but may expand to more than 90% of the diet when insects are abundant and easily captured...

Preference for animal matter seems confirmed."

Also, as side note... there have been future projections for our species to consume more insects due to various environmental(drought/flood) and socio-cultural changes. Wouldn't bother me - I've eaten palm grubs and found them to be pretty yummy - kind of a nutty flavor. Shy

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01-05-2014, 09:39 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(01-05-2014 08:48 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  The evolutionary argument is irrelevant if it doesn't demonstrate a necessity for meat. Examine the evidence. Arguments from ignorance are not valid arguments. Just because we don't know everything about nutrition doesn't mean that we need meat, you have to back a positive claim like "meat is necessary for our survival" with evidence. There is no evidence for that. Quite the contrary even. I have linked three academic, medical studies supporting the claim that veganism is healthy and effective at preventing, sometimes even treating, diseases, and another member linked the china study which demonstrates a whole lot more. What more proof, what more evidence would be required to persuade you?

If we agree that veganism is healthy, hardly a bold claim, it doesn't even prove my vegan argument, it only proves its possible to be a healthy vegan.

I am not making "the evolutionary argument" as you call it.

I am not making any argument, I am pointing out that your post was factually in error.
This is typical for zealots like you. Drinking Beverage

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01-05-2014, 11:20 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(01-05-2014 09:02 PM)kim Wrote:  The 2nd part of this article is an interesting place to start a dietary update of primates.

"Many primate species once considered herbivorous are now known to expand the animal-matter portion of their diet to high levels when it is possible to do so...
Insect food is the predominant animal matter resource for primates. Insects are eaten by all extant apes, i.e., chimpanzees (e.g., Lawick-Goodall 1968), orang-utans (Gladikas-Brindamour1), gorillas (Fossey2), gibbons (Chivers 1972, R.L. Tilson3), and the siamang (Chivers 1972). The amount of insect matter in most primate diets is small, but may expand to more than 90% of the diet when insects are abundant and easily captured...

Preference for animal matter seems confirmed."

Also, as side note... there have been future projections for our species to consume more insects due to various environmental(drought/flood) and socio-cultural changes. Wouldn't bother me - I've eaten palm grubs and found them to be pretty yummy - kind of a nutty flavor. Shy

I don't have any stake in proving anything about primates. If you or anybody else wants to count that as a victory you are welcome too it Undecided
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01-05-2014, 11:33 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(01-05-2014 11:20 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I don't have any stake in proving anything about primates. If you or anybody else wants to count that as a victory you are welcome too it Undecided


It's this kind of passive aggression that turns you into just honey-flavored POISON!
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