How do Aethist think about veganism?
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28-04-2014, 09:09 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 08:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 08:18 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I said I didn't want to get into the specifics of the arguments, and I will try and stick to that. Try and empathize with me if you can, hearing people equate killing animals as if its the same thing as eating vegetable, and make food chain arguments, and evolutionary arguments, ect, is frustrating intellectually from my point of view. Please, I don't mean to tell anybody that their a bad person or suggest that they are no intelligent or rational thinkers. Far from that, a forum like this one is a nexus for rational thinkers. If you are utterly convinced of the logical soundness of veganism, as I am, it is incredibly perplexing and vexing when you hear free thinkers make the same non arguments that everyone else does.

If you could try and hear this sentiment without feeling judged, criticized, or otherwise insulted, please take the time to think as critically and as deeply about your diet as you all have about your faith. I think if you approach food with the same rationalism, wit, and incredulous humor as a Dokins or a Hitchens (and I know that's a tall order!) then at the very minimum, some interesting observations might be made.

Thank you all for welcoming me to this forum so graciously and for being so patient with me. Only trying to spark some discussion, and maybe a little deep thought if I can Smile.

*Dawkins

The evolutionary argument is both rational and practical. You are welcome to make an argument based on your personal ethics and morality, but that does not trump facts.

Please forgive me If you said this earlier, but which facts are you referring to?
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28-04-2014, 09:10 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 09:09 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 08:46 PM)Chas Wrote:  *Dawkins

The evolutionary argument is both rational and practical. You are welcome to make an argument based on your personal ethics and morality, but that does not trump facts.

Please forgive me If you said this earlier, but which facts are you referring to?

The fact that we evolved as omnivores.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-04-2014, 09:21 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
Oh good, I am glad you brought that up.

Totally agree with you, human beings are evolutionary omnivores. Evidence is out there, and it can't really be much denied. Not going to try! There are some subtle nuances that can be observed though, we are certainly not well adapted as omnivores, but its not really relevant and doesn't take anything away from your point.

As I see it though, the question isn't CAN we eat meat, but SHOULD we eat it. Its a bit of a different argument, and you would be correct if you said the facts are perhaps a bit less concrete in that discussion. You can debate it logically though, there is a whole field of phiosophy called moral theory (If you didn't already know that) where people do just that. It relies on some basic assumptions though. If you are of the belief that animals lives and well being has no moral relevance, that is you can do whatever you please to animals no matter the harm it causes them without committing any moral wrong doing, then I can't really make a moral argument that eating meat is wrong. You would have to share the common belief that animals lives have at least some value and are worthy of moral consideration. If you do share that sentiment though, the logic has a pretty clear route, at least I think so.
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28-04-2014, 09:31 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 09:21 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Totally agree with you, human beings are evolutionary omnivores. Evidence is out there, and it can't really be much denied. Not going to try! There are some subtle nuances that can be observed though, we are certainly not well adapted as omnivores, but its not really relevant and doesn't take anything away from your point.

That's where your argument goes off the rails and you lose credibility. We are as well adapted as any omnivore, better than some.

If you want to make a moral argument, go right ahead. Just don't make ignorant, unsupported biological or evolutionary ones.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-04-2014, 09:39 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 09:31 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 09:21 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Totally agree with you, human beings are evolutionary omnivores. Evidence is out there, and it can't really be much denied. Not going to try! There are some subtle nuances that can be observed though, we are certainly not well adapted as omnivores, but its not really relevant and doesn't take anything away from your point.

That's where your argument goes off the rails and you lose credibility. We are as well adapted as any omnivore, better than some.

If you want to make a moral argument, go right ahead. Just don't make ignorant, unsupported biological or evolutionary ones.

You got it! Keep in mind though, the fact that we evolved as omnivores does not provide justification for eating animals. It would be incorrect to say we should eat meat because our ancestors did, that is would be a fallacious appeal to tradition!
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28-04-2014, 09:42 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 08:21 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I apologize if I made you feel judged. That is the furthest thing from my intentions!

You mean aside from the explicit comparisons you drew and moral high ground you seized for yourself?

(28-04-2014 03:36 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  (In my opinion) both atheism and veganism are more rationally poor and humanitarian belief systems than pretty much all other alternatives. Both veganism and atheism seem to be the natural evolution of rational thought and a logical, evidence based approach to either food or faith.

That's pretty unambiguous.

But, fair enough.

(28-04-2014 09:39 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  You got it! Keep in mind though, the fact that we evolved as omnivores does not provide justification for eating animals. It would be incorrect to say we should eat meat because our ancestors did, that is would be a fallacious appeal to tradition!

But that's just half of an argument.

An act is, in isolation, morally neutral. Taking prior practice as explanation rather than any stronger justification, it's then up to you to make explicit the remainder of the argument - why should we stop doing so?

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28-04-2014, 09:46 PM (This post was last modified: 28-04-2014 09:50 PM by Alex_Leonardo.)
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
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28-04-2014, 09:48 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 09:39 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 09:31 PM)Chas Wrote:  That's where your argument goes off the rails and you lose credibility. We are as well adapted as any omnivore, better than some.

If you want to make a moral argument, go right ahead. Just don't make ignorant, unsupported biological or evolutionary ones.

You got it! Keep in mind though, the fact that we evolved as omnivores does not provide justification for eating animals. It would be incorrect to say we should eat meat because our ancestors did, that is would be a fallacious appeal to tradition!

You are conflating ethics and biology. Stop it.

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Science is not a subject, but a method.
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28-04-2014, 09:48 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 08:33 PM)ThePaleolithicFreethinker Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 07:36 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Even if we don't agree that eating meat is wrong, surely we can agree that "because it tastes good" is not a convincing argument right? Maybe it warrants further inspection?

Thats because meat and eggs are the only safe protein we have.

Soy is basically a gmo that is so bad that it makes the meat bad. Ya, if you thinking eating animals that eat soy is bad, then being the soy eating animal is killer.

http://www.thehealthyhomeeconomist.com/1...your-diet/

Beans are a little safer than soy but they give to many downfalls for it to be a benefit only.

Peanuts are the worst.

http://listverse.com/2012/05/18/10-unhea...e-healthy/

to the point people realize it was bad.

Only other source is nuts, but even that should be limited to a certain amount. Also the fact that if you are me you are allergic to nuts and eggs so you can't really get protein any where but meat.Tongue

Those are terrible sources, dude.

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28-04-2014, 09:55 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
It's "atheists," not "Aethist," by the way. Sleepy

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