How do Aethist think about veganism?
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28-04-2014, 09:58 PM (This post was last modified: 28-04-2014 10:02 PM by sporehux.)
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 09:55 PM)Vosur Wrote:  It's "atheists," not "Aethist," by the way. Sleepy

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F*ck you, and the dictionary you rode in on Laughat

I was going to make a quick salad for lunch, this thread has coaxed me to cook a big T-bone steak.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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28-04-2014, 10:02 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 03:36 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I am a new member to the thinking atheist web forum, and a pretty new member to the podcast and channel in general. I really enjoy watching and participating in secular and free thinking discussion because I find that the community is much more receptive to reason and logic and in general more enlightened and open minded. I have been an atheist pretty much my whole life. I flirted with theism for a long time, primarily out of fear and uncertainty, but I started doubting at a very early age. I have noticed in the secular community that many people are a lot like me, we just don't fit in theistic communities. We tend to be incessant question'ers and challengers of ideas and authorities. While many believers seem to be very comfortable and rather uncritical of their faith, as atheist we just can't help but challenge it even if it hurts, and for a time anyway, makes us very unhappy. We just can't believe in something that doesn't make sense.

When I became a vegan more than a year ago, I found my "conversation" to vegansim to be remarkably similar to my "conversion" to atheism.

Sounds doubtful.


Quote: At first I was a bit of a quite and abashed vagan, saying things like "its good for my health"

No, it's not.

Quote:and "the way the world is going there might be a day when the choice is made for me not to eat meat" and things like that,

And who would you allow to make that sort of choice for you.


Quote:somewhat similar to the way people become "spiritual but not religious" and "agnostic but not athiest" as they settle into their new non-theist identity.
Except that atheism is non-belief in a set of batshit-crazy beliefs, while the cult of veganism is a cult based on batshit-crazy beliefs.


Quote: I started to become much more aware of my culture, my society, the hypocrisies in the way we treat animals and evaluate life, and the non arguments people use to justify this position.

Oh, look -- a bunch of question-begging apologetics arguments. Who knew.


Quote:Some 55-85% of people are theist in the US and abroad depending on where you go, but something like 68% of people are omnivores and about 30% of people are "vegetarians", meaning eat at least some animal products, and only 2% of us are vegan.

Might tell you something.


Quote: Its an immense culture shock, and it become incredibly isolating when you find your self being the only person eating what you eat and the dinner table, or more often, not eating what everybody else is eating. As fundamental as religion is to most people, I truly believe food is even more so, and the way people talk about food is often nearly identical in structure and form to the way people talk about prayer, ritual, and god.


Well, the way VEGANS obsess over food and justify their veganism, anyway.

Quote:I don't particularly want to get into the specifics of the vegan argument,

Really? Then why are you bringing it up. You would prefer to just have us accept that shit without examining it?


Quote: more so I want to draw a parallel between veganism and atheism in a few ways.

It doesn't work.


Quote:Both vegans and atheist are often marginalized, ridiculed, and grossly misrepresented in general.

So are Hare Krishnas and Moonies. And for much more parallel reasons to veganism than atheists are.



Quote: (In my opinion) both atheism and veganism are more rationally poor and humanitarian belief systems than pretty much all other alternatives.

..."rationally poor"? Meaning, devoid of reason? Atheism, no. Veganism, yes.

And I thought you didn't want to "get into the vegan argument", but here you are pandering it.


Quote: Both veganism and atheism seem to be the natural evolution of rational thought and a logical, evidence based approach to either food or faith.

Not at all with veganism. Not in the slightest.



Quote:Despite that though, I think its a fair assumption that most atheist are not vegans. It seems to strange to me that these intelligent and compassionate people

Oh, look -- "If you aren't a vegan, you aren't intelligent, evolved, or compassionate." I thought you said you didn't want to "get into the vegan argument". Go fuck yourself with a cactus.



Quote:I so readily identify with and respect have not made the compassionate and rational leap to the vegan diet.

Oh and we are irrational too. Wrap that fucking cactus with barbed wire and slather on some habanero sauce while you're at it. Take your delusions of moral and intellectual superiority down the fucking road.



Quote: For those who are not familiar and find this post very strange, I strongly recommend you look into the vegan argument.


[Image: 49141752.jpg]



Shove your proselytizing right up your ass.


Quote: The social, political, environmental, economic, and humanitarian benefits to vegansim (both for animals and people) are extremely difficult to dispute.

What, because some fucking idiot on the interwebz (YOU) says so? Dunning-Krueger much, asshole?


Quote:If you are a vegan atheist I would love to hear from you. If you are a non vegan atheist I am curious, have you done any research into veganism, and why have you ultimately decided to keep eating animals and using animals derived products?

I watched a vegan almost starve to death once over his stupidity. And yours.

Go the fuck away.





(28-04-2014 07:41 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 07:36 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Even if we don't agree that eating meat is wrong, surely we can agree that "because it tastes good" is not a convincing argument right?

No?

You would have to demonstrate that as well.

(28-04-2014 07:36 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Maybe it warrants further inspection?

Don't think we can't hear you silently judging, mate.



^^^ Fucking THIS.

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28-04-2014, 10:06 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
Yet again I agree with doubleTaq, and feel dirty because of it Undecided
sometimes I feel he's my unfiltered alter ego, like in fight club.

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28-04-2014, 10:16 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 08:18 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I said I didn't want to get into the specifics of the arguments, and I will try and stick to that.

No. you OBVIOUSLY would prefer to just press your delusion on us without question. Fuck off.



Quote:Try and empathize with me if you can,

NO. You won't do so for us, why should we with you. Piss off.


Quote: hearing people equate killing animals as if its the same thing as eating vegetable, and make food chain arguments, and evolutionary arguments, ect, is frustrating intellectually from my point of view.

Tough shit that you cannot pass insurmountable hurdles. I am sure it is also frustrating as shit for theist apologists that we refuse to accept their batshittery as well.




Quote: Please, I don't mean to tell anybody that their a bad person or suggest that they are no intelligent or rational thinkers.

Gaslight much, asshole? You just fucking said it in so many fucking words. including your claim that being an omnivore is somehow "wrong". Don't try to piss down our backs and tell us it's raining. You'll wind up with a great big hole full of double-ought buck where you fucking pecker used to be.



Quote:Far from that, a forum like this one is a nexus for rational thinkers.

Which pretty much leaves vegans out.


Quote:If you are utterly convinced of the logical soundness of veganism, as I am, it is incredibly perplexing and vexing when you hear free thinkers make the same non arguments that everyone else does.


Yeah we get a dozen theist trolls here a week who think eactly the same way you do.


Quote:If you could try and hear this sentiment without feeling judged, criticized, or otherwise insulted,

YOU have already demonstrated that YOU can't express this "sentiment" -- which is actually precisely the "vegan argument" you LIE to us and claim you don't want to present -- without judging, criticizing, and insulting us.



Quote:please take the time to think as critically and as deeply about your diet as you all have about your faith.

See, moron, we don't HAVE a faith. BECAUSE we examined and rejected the batshit-crazy claims of theists. Like we reject the batshit-crazy (and the INEVITABLE) sideways and passive-aggressive claims of vegans like you.



Quote: I think if you approach food with the same rationalism, wit, and incredulous humor as a Dokins or a Hitchens (and I know that's a tall order!) then at the very minimum, some interesting observations might be made.

What the fuck is a "Dokens"? You call yourself an atheist? I don't believe you. We approach your dubious, fallacious, emotional brainwashed dogmatic claims about food in precisely the same way as we do theists' brainwashed claims. We find them wanting.

Quote:Thank you all for welcoming me to this forum so graciously and for being so patient with me. Only trying to spark some discussion, and maybe a little deep thought if I can Smile.

Go take a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut. Go take a flying fuck at the moon.




(28-04-2014 08:21 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 07:41 PM)cjlr Wrote:  No?

You would have to demonstrate that as well.


Don't think we can't hear you silently judging, mate.

I apologize if I made you feel judged. That is the furthest thing from my intentions!

BULLSHIT.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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28-04-2014, 10:16 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 09:42 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 08:21 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I apologize if I made you feel judged. That is the furthest thing from my intentions!

You mean aside from the explicit comparisons you drew and moral high ground you seized for yourself?

(28-04-2014 03:36 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  (In my opinion) both atheism and veganism are more rationally poor and humanitarian belief systems than pretty much all other alternatives. Both veganism and atheism seem to be the natural evolution of rational thought and a logical, evidence based approach to either food or faith.

That's pretty unambiguous.

But, fair enough.

(28-04-2014 09:39 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  You got it! Keep in mind though, the fact that we evolved as omnivores does not provide justification for eating animals. It would be incorrect to say we should eat meat because our ancestors did, that is would be a fallacious appeal to tradition!

But that's just half of an argument.

An act is, in isolation, morally neutral. Taking prior practice as explanation rather than any stronger justification, it's then up to you to make explicit the remainder of the argument - why should we stop doing so?

Well my position is that its wrong to kill animals without good cause. I miss all the foods I used to eat a lot, despite what many vegans will tell you it never gets easy to fight the food cravings. That being said I haven't tasted anything so good its worth killing for. Its a cost benefit analysis, how much harm do you cause so you can eat what you like to eat? Once you get a handle on how much damage you do, then question is, was it worth it? For me, not even close. I know that sounds really preachy, but when I feel weak and really want a hamburger, that is the line of moral reasoning I use to recenter myself.

(28-04-2014 09:46 PM)Alex_Leonardo Wrote:  [Image: 20130907.png]

That's too funny Big Grin. Thanks for sharing.
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28-04-2014, 10:18 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 10:06 PM)sporehux Wrote:  Yet again I agree with doubleTaq, and feel dirty because of it Undecided
sometimes I feel he's my unfiltered alter ego, like in fight club.

... I wanted to breathe smoke.

Thanks Taq, I couldn't have said it better.

Reminds me of a joke.

How can you tell if someone is a vegan?

Don't worry, they'll fucking tell you.

Jokes aside, I have no problem with someone choosing a vegan lifestyle for themselves, but when some smug asshole tries to claim that they are morally superior or more enlightened than I because they choose to deprive their body of the diet it evolved to eat, they can go eat a bag of dicks. (wait that wouldn't be vegan, would it?)

She turned me into a NEWT. I got better, though.

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28-04-2014, 10:19 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
If one finds the justifications of veganism so profound and compelling, one surely would be able to share same, no?

Eating animals can at least be framed and judged as a coherent matter. Though one must be very careful to distinguish between the abstracted matters of principle and specific contingent circumstances. It would also be helpful to remember that bluntly dogmatic absolute stances are of very little value in a nuanced, contextual world.

Animal derived products is a thing which is literally impossible to define. So there's that.

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28-04-2014, 10:21 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 10:16 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I know that sounds really preachy, but when I feel weak and really want a hamburger, that is the line of moral reasoning I use to recenter myself.

[Image: cadd1751383ca9d21d32e025e405de38.jpg]

She turned me into a NEWT. I got better, though.

"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
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28-04-2014, 10:21 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 10:16 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 08:18 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I said I didn't want to get into the specifics of the arguments, and I will try and stick to that.

No. you OBVIOUSLY would prefer to just press your delusion on us without question. Fuck off.



Quote:Try and empathize with me if you can,

NO. You won't do so for us, why should we with you. Piss off.


Quote: hearing people equate killing animals as if its the same thing as eating vegetable, and make food chain arguments, and evolutionary arguments, ect, is frustrating intellectually from my point of view.

Tough shit that you cannot pass insurmountable hurdles. I am sure it is also frustrating as shit for theist apologists that we refuse to accept their batshittery as well.




Quote: Please, I don't mean to tell anybody that their a bad person or suggest that they are no intelligent or rational thinkers.

Gaslight much, asshole? You just fucking said it in so many fucking words. including your claim that being an omnivore is somehow "wrong". Don't try to piss down our backs and tell us it's raining. You'll wind up with a great big hole full of double-ought buck where you fucking pecker used to be.



Quote:Far from that, a forum like this one is a nexus for rational thinkers.

Which pretty much leaves vegans out.


Quote:If you are utterly convinced of the logical soundness of veganism, as I am, it is incredibly perplexing and vexing when you hear free thinkers make the same non arguments that everyone else does.


Yeah we get a dozen theist trolls here a week who think eactly the same way you do.


Quote:If you could try and hear this sentiment without feeling judged, criticized, or otherwise insulted,

YOU have already demonstrated that YOU can't express this "sentiment" -- which is actually precisely the "vegan argument" you LIE to us and claim you don't want to present -- without judging, criticizing, and insulting us.



Quote:please take the time to think as critically and as deeply about your diet as you all have about your faith.

See, moron, we don't HAVE a faith. BECAUSE we examined and rejected the batshit-crazy claims of theists. Like we reject the batshit-crazy (and the INEVITABLE) sideways and passive-aggressive claims of vegans like you.



Quote: I think if you approach food with the same rationalism, wit, and incredulous humor as a Dokins or a Hitchens (and I know that's a tall order!) then at the very minimum, some interesting observations might be made.

What the fuck is a "Dokens"? You call yourself an atheist? I don't believe you. We approach your dubious, fallacious, emotional brainwashed dogmatic claims about food in precisely the same way as we do theists' brainwashed claims. We find them wanting.

Quote:Thank you all for welcoming me to this forum so graciously and for being so patient with me. Only trying to spark some discussion, and maybe a little deep thought if I can Smile.

Go take a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut. Go take a flying fuck at the moon.




(28-04-2014 08:21 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I apologize if I made you feel judged. That is the furthest thing from my intentions!

BULLSHIT.

I am pretty far into "getting into it", your right. I get carried away, i am passionate about it and its frustrating sometimes to talk about it with people of opposing views. If you would like to discuss it I would be happy to. I am trying my best to both make my point and not offend people, but I see that I have, so far as you are concerned any way, failed. Again, I'm sorry if I said something unfair or inappropriate.
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28-04-2014, 10:30 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 10:16 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Well my position is that its wrong to kill animals without good cause.

"Good", here, being a wholly subjective moral judgement.
(as are, y'know, all moral judgements)

And in matters of subjective personal morality, you must recognise that subjective precepts are not going to be shared by [any or all] others.

(28-04-2014 10:16 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I miss all the foods I used to eat a lot, despite what many vegans will tell you it never gets easy to fight the food cravings. That being said I haven't tasted anything so good its worth killing for.

You can't just say "killing" and hope that a morally-loaded term will do your work for you.

Develop.

(28-04-2014 10:16 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Its a cost benefit analysis, how much harm do you cause so you can eat what you like to eat? Once you get a handle on how much damage you do, then question is, was it worth it? For me, not even close.

"For me" being, again, the key words there.
(that cost-benefit analysis is necessarily subjective)

However, you mentioned before factors that were not purely personal. Would you care to elaborate?

(28-04-2014 10:16 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I know that sounds really preachy, but when I feel weak and really want a hamburger, that is the line of moral reasoning I use to recenter myself.

Which, one more time, is wholly and completely subjective. And you know it.

So the part where you carried on as though it weren't, in your OP, is not a productive approach.

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