How do Aethist think about veganism?
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28-04-2014, 10:31 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 10:19 PM)cjlr Wrote:  If one finds the justifications of veganism so profound and compelling, one surely would be able to share same, no?

I think a lot about how come more people are thinking more critically about veganism. What we eat is central to who we think we are. As an intellectual exercise, try to pretend to be vegan for a week. You might be suprised how strange it feels, not because the food is different, but because you feel so alienated from the life you use to live. It difficult and challenging to think about something so core to your cultural identity like that. At least it was for me, I don't claim to speak for anybody else when I say that.

Quote:Eating animals can at least be framed and judged as a coherent matter. Though one must be very careful to distinguish between the abstracted matters of principle and specific contingent circumstances. It would also be helpful to remember that bluntly dogmatic absolute stances are of very little value in a nuanced, contextual world.

Each vegan would feel differently about that. I am not an absolutist, I believe all morality is relative, veganism not excluded. In the relevant content of a modern, first world society, where alternative food is readily available and plentiful, where eating meat is a matter of choice and not survival, I think the moral framework I presented holds up. At least it does for me. Would be happy to deciminate it though if you care to.

Quote:Animal derived products is a thing which is literally impossible to define. So there's that.

As a person who reads a lot of labels and does a lot of research into the products I use, couldn't agree more! There is a lot of grey area for sure.
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28-04-2014, 10:31 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 10:21 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 10:16 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  No. you OBVIOUSLY would prefer to just press your delusion on us without question. Fuck off.




NO. You won't do so for us, why should we with you. Piss off.



Tough shit that you cannot pass insurmountable hurdles. I am sure it is also frustrating as shit for theist apologists that we refuse to accept their batshittery as well.





Gaslight much, asshole? You just fucking said it in so many fucking words. including your claim that being an omnivore is somehow "wrong". Don't try to piss down our backs and tell us it's raining. You'll wind up with a great big hole full of double-ought buck where you fucking pecker used to be.




Which pretty much leaves vegans out.




Yeah we get a dozen theist trolls here a week who think eactly the same way you do.



YOU have already demonstrated that YOU can't express this "sentiment" -- which is actually precisely the "vegan argument" you LIE to us and claim you don't want to present -- without judging, criticizing, and insulting us.




See, moron, we don't HAVE a faith. BECAUSE we examined and rejected the batshit-crazy claims of theists. Like we reject the batshit-crazy (and the INEVITABLE) sideways and passive-aggressive claims of vegans like you.




What the fuck is a "Dokens"? You call yourself an atheist? I don't believe you. We approach your dubious, fallacious, emotional brainwashed dogmatic claims about food in precisely the same way as we do theists' brainwashed claims. We find them wanting.


Go take a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut. Go take a flying fuck at the moon.





BULLSHIT.

I am pretty far into "getting into it", your right. I get carried away, i am passionate about it and its frustrating sometimes to talk about it with people of opposing views. If you would like to discuss it I would be happy to. I am trying my best to both make my point and not offend people, but I see that I have, so far as you are concerned any way, failed. Again, I'm sorry if I said something unfair or inappropriate.

You have neither made a valid point, nor avoided offending people. You have come here, pretensions held high, to tell us how morally and rationally superior vegans are and then pretended to mean no offense. You further insult our intelligence by being an utter hypocrite, saying "Here, listen to all the reasons I'm right, but don't you dare tell me how I may be wrong"

I don't agree with Taq's tactics often, but on this one, I'm with him.

She turned me into a NEWT. I got better, though.

"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
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28-04-2014, 10:34 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 08:44 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Good points guys. I try to avoid the nutrition side of the vegan argument,

....because it's a bunch of shit.


Quote:only because nutrient is really complex and not yet fully understood.

--- by fucking vegans.


Quote:Everyone has their favorite study they like to quote to justify their diet, and that's fine, you may be right I am not sure.

I don't fucking HAVE to justify my diet to anyone. And the fact that you feel like I should HAVE to makes you an insufferable control-junkie.


Quote:I do know that there is an overwhelming amount of evidence that shows that vegans have very positive health outcomes.

I have personally witnessed quite different. Fuck the hell off with your proselytizing snake-oil bullshit.


Quote:It might not be the best possible, but it is conducive for long life and good health in general, which is enough for me.

Really? It wasn't for the idiot vegan I watched starve himself to the point of passing out.


Quote:The lynch pin of the vegan argument is and probably always will be the moral one.

I thought you didn't want to get into the vegan argument. Fuck you and fuck your narcissistic holier-than-thou morality.


Quote:Its a tough argument to hear,

No, it's not at all. It's a batshit argument, not unlike that of any other cult.


Quote: partially because people feel judged and preached to,


....when they are being judged and preached at, like you are doing right now.


Quote: but what I discovered after becoming a vegan, I think mostly difficult to listen to

It's difficult to listen to because it's batshittery and no one wants to fucking hear it. And yet here you are, pushing it on us. Why. Go fuck yourself.


Quote: because it challenges so much of our culture and ideology about animals and nature.

I tell you what. Go to a fucking zoo, and go into the bear's pen, and go tell the fucking bears how morally wrong it is for them to eat meat, how it's unnatural and all, and how you are so much more fucking compassionate and intelligent than they are because you don't fucking eat meat. Report back with your findings.



Quote: I was watching a video on youtube a while back - it was a young man ranting very provocatively about veganism.

Sort of like you are ranting here.


Quote: Even as a vegan I found it difficult to watch,

And yet you fail to feel embarrassment yourself when you do it. Like now.



Quote:but he said something right at the end of it that really stuck with me. I am paraphrasing here, but it was something like "You can get mad at me all you like, but at the end of the day I am fighting to save animals and you are fighting to kill them."

So you are on a fucking holier-than-thou crusade adn you don't give a fuck at all what we really think. We aren't even really PEOPLE to you, you merely see us as some kind of captive audience to inflict your batshit views on us. But what you fail to grasp is that is the same sort of sentiment that the idiots at Westboro Baptist Church use to justify THEIR tomfuckery. So there's that.


Quote:I don't open with that when I try and talk to people about veganism, but you have to admit, its a pretty big moral hurdle to navigate around. I couldn't do it, hence I became vegan Big Grin.

No, it's simply a line that snake-oil salesmen like you use to dupe the gullible and credulous into buying your bullshit.


Now go the fuck away.

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28-04-2014, 10:36 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 10:31 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 10:19 PM)cjlr Wrote:  If one finds the justifications of veganism so profound and compelling, one surely would be able to share same, no?

I think a lot about how come more people are thinking more critically about veganism. What we eat is central to who we think we are. As an intellectual exercise, try to pretend to be vegan for a week. You might be suprised how strange it feels, not because the food is different, but because you feel so alienated from the life you use to live. It difficult and challenging to think about something so core to your cultural identity like that. At least it was for me, I don't claim to speak for anybody else when I say that.

That's the exact opposite of an answer. I asked you a why.

(28-04-2014 10:31 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
Quote:Eating animals can at least be framed and judged as a coherent matter. Though one must be very careful to distinguish between the abstracted matters of principle and specific contingent circumstances. It would also be helpful to remember that bluntly dogmatic absolute stances are of very little value in a nuanced, contextual world.

Each vegan would feel differently about that. I am not an absolutist, I believe all morality is relative, veganism not excluded.

That's.... not what your OP says.

So there's that.

(28-04-2014 10:31 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  In the relevant content of a modern, first world society, where alternative food is readily available and plentiful, where eating meat is a matter of choice and not survival, I think the moral framework I presented holds up. At least it does for me. Would be happy to deciminate it though if you care to.

You haven't presented anything. You've thrown out some loaded and ill-defined terms and called it a day after some summary assertions.

(28-04-2014 10:31 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
Quote:Animal derived products is a thing which is literally impossible to define. So there's that.

As a person who reads a lot of labels and does a lot of research into the products I use, couldn't agree more! There is a lot of grey area for sure.

Yes, but also the part where being a living human being your mere existence inevitably affects millions of other organisms...

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28-04-2014, 10:36 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 10:31 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 10:21 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I am pretty far into "getting into it", your right. I get carried away, i am passionate about it and its frustrating sometimes to talk about it with people of opposing views. If you would like to discuss it I would be happy to. I am trying my best to both make my point and not offend people, but I see that I have, so far as you are concerned any way, failed. Again, I'm sorry if I said something unfair or inappropriate.

You have neither made a valid point, nor avoided offending people. You have come here, pretensions held high, to tell us how morally and rationally superior vegans are and then pretended to mean no offense. You further insult our intelligence by being an utter hypocrite, saying "Here, listen to all the reasons I'm right, but don't you dare tell me how I may be wrong"

I don't agree with Taq's tactics often, but on this one, I'm with him.

It difficult to have a discussion about veganism without offending people. The whole topic has a moral premise. I can't say I am right without implying that you are wrong, I can only try and put it in the most respectful cordial way possible. The alternative is I don't argue my point at all. This is an option I often elect but not here in this thread today. Please know I respect you and everyone else here and only want to try and spark a discussion.
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28-04-2014, 10:43 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 10:36 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 10:31 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I think a lot about how come more people are thinking more critically about veganism. What we eat is central to who we think we are. As an intellectual exercise, try to pretend to be vegan for a week. You might be suprised how strange it feels, not because the food is different, but because you feel so alienated from the life you use to live. It difficult and challenging to think about something so core to your cultural identity like that. At least it was for me, I don't claim to speak for anybody else when I say that.

That's the exact opposite of an answer. I asked you a why.

(28-04-2014 10:31 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Each vegan would feel differently about that. I am not an absolutist, I believe all morality is relative, veganism not excluded.

That's.... not what your OP says.

So there's that.

(28-04-2014 10:31 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  In the relevant content of a modern, first world society, where alternative food is readily available and plentiful, where eating meat is a matter of choice and not survival, I think the moral framework I presented holds up. At least it does for me. Would be happy to deciminate it though if you care to.

You haven't presented anything. You've thrown out some loaded and ill-defined terms and called it a day after some summary assertions.

(28-04-2014 10:31 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  As a person who reads a lot of labels and does a lot of research into the products I use, couldn't agree more! There is a lot of grey area for sure.

Yes, but also the part where being a living human being your mere existence inevitably affects millions of other organisms...

I do appreciate your points. The problem with any moral discussion, especially when without a religious context, is that in the end there is no absolute justification for any moral belief. Morality doesn't exist, its an interpretation of actual events. For practical reason you have to invoke some sense of relativism in order to make any sense of the world. In essence you have to start somewhere, lend it validity and truth, and build on it from there.

If you operate in a completely different moral framework than my own, then I can't argue with you. The axioms you use to define your moral theory are different then mine, by definition, according to your morality in this example, I would be wrong.
I would argue however that most of us have a similar enough moral theory. If we agree on some basic assumptions, for example that the lives of animals have value and are worthy of moral consideration, then we can make logical arguments based upon those assumptions. If those assumptions are not accurate, if that doesn't apply to you, then yes everything I said is exactly hot air.
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28-04-2014, 10:43 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 09:21 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Oh good, I am glad you brought that up.

Totally agree with you, human beings are evolutionary omnivores. Evidence is out there, and it can't really be much denied. Not going to try! There are some subtle nuances that can be observed though, we are certainly not well adapted as omnivores, but its not really relevant and doesn't take anything away from your point.

As I see it though, the question isn't CAN we eat meat, but SHOULD we eat it.

If we want to be healthy we should. Fuck you and your moralistic bullshit. I didn't ask to be born into this world where something has to die for me to live. None of us did. And I'm not going to jeopardize my health and go to great lengths to avoid eating meat just because it upsets some panty-waist brainwashed fucktard on the internet.



Quote:Its a bit of a different argument, and you would be correct if you said the facts are perhaps a bit less concrete in that discussion. You can debate it logically though, there is a whole field of phiosophy called moral theory (If you didn't already know that) where people do just that.

It has nothing to do with philosophy whatsoever. Go shove your sophistry up your ass.



Quote: It relies on some basic assumptions though. If you are of the belief that animals lives and well being has no moral relevance,

Strawman much, asshole?


Quote: that is you can do whatever you please to animals no matter the harm it causes them without committing any moral wrong doing,

Strawman much, asshole?


Quote:then I can't really make a moral argument that eating meat is wrong.

You can't make a moral argument anyway. Fuck you, fuck philosophy, and fuck your faux-philosophy and your batshit arguments.

Quote:You would have to share the common belief that animals lives have at least some value and are worthy of moral consideration. If you do share that sentiment though, the logic has a pretty clear route, at least I think so.

Not at all. And don't kid yourself into thinking we don't see your back-handed swipe at our sense of compassion or and our morality.

You really should leave this forum before this gets nasty.

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28-04-2014, 10:45 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 10:36 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 10:31 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  You have neither made a valid point, nor avoided offending people. You have come here, pretensions held high, to tell us how morally and rationally superior vegans are and then pretended to mean no offense. You further insult our intelligence by being an utter hypocrite, saying "Here, listen to all the reasons I'm right, but don't you dare tell me how I may be wrong"

I don't agree with Taq's tactics often, but on this one, I'm with him.

It difficult to have a discussion about veganism without offending people. The whole topic has a moral premise. I can't say I am right without implying that you are wrong, I can only try and put it in the most respectful cordial way possible. The alternative is I don't argue my point at all. This is an option I often elect but not here in this thread today. Please know I respect you and everyone else here and only want to try and spark a discussion.

No, it's not. You discuss veganism without being a pretentious douchebag. See? Simple. No one gets offended How have I gained such wisdom?? Because I have friends who are vegans and aren't preachy dickbags about it. We have discussions about it all the time and no one's feelings get hurt. It's because they don't start their arguments with a "I'm better than you because" type statement.

Don't tell me you respect me right after you've just gotten done stating that I'm irrational and morally inferior because I eat meat. That would only be slightly less disingenuous than me telling me I respect you after telling you to go fuck yourself.

You keep avoiding the questions that are asked of you by either ignoring them, claiming you don't want to discuss the arguments (while making your own arguments), or giving idiotic non-answers hoping that no one will notice.

This is not the way to make a point while not offending anyone.

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"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
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28-04-2014, 10:47 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
I for one didn't take offence in any of the things you said. Yeah, at some point you come off as smug or righteous, but you're talking morals, so for me it's expected to sound like that in this kind of conversation.

I still haven't found any compelling arguments though, actually the only argument you stand by is "if you believe that killing animals is wrong, then it's logical that eating animals is bad". That may be up for debate, but that's exactly the opposite of an atheistic "way of thinking", it's the equivalent of "if you believe in the bible then it's logical that god exists".

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28-04-2014, 10:49 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 10:43 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 10:36 PM)cjlr Wrote:  That's the exact opposite of an answer. I asked you a why.


That's.... not what your OP says.

So there's that.


You haven't presented anything. You've thrown out some loaded and ill-defined terms and called it a day after some summary assertions.


Yes, but also the part where being a living human being your mere existence inevitably affects millions of other organisms...

I do appreciate your points. The problem with any moral discussion, especially when without a religious context, is that in the end there is no absolute justification for any moral belief. Morality doesn't exist, its an interpretation of actual events. For practical reason you have to invoke some sense of relativism in order to make any sense of the world. In essence you have to start somewhere, lend it validity and truth, and build on it from there.

If you operate in a completely different moral framework than my own, then I can't argue with you. The axioms you use to define your moral theory are different then mine, by definition, according to your morality in this example, I would be wrong.
I would argue however that most of us have a similar enough moral theory. If we agree on some basic assumptions, for example that the lives of animals have value and are worthy of moral consideration, then we can make logical arguments based upon those assumptions. If those assumptions are not accurate, if that doesn't apply to you, then yes everything I said is exactly hot air.

And what are these "logical arguments"? Because I'd REALLY love to see something logical come out of you.... Dodgy

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"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
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