How do Aethist think about veganism?
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28-04-2014, 10:50 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 10:16 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Well my position is that its wrong to kill animals without good cause.

Personal survival is a real good fucking cause. And you can only speak for what is "right or wrong" FOR YOU. You don't speak for us.



Quote:I miss all the foods I used to eat a lot, despite what many vegans will tell you it never gets easy to fight the food cravings.

I don't give a flying fuck that you are too stupid to provide yourself with real nutrition.


Quote: That being said I haven't tasted anything so good its worth killing for.

You kill every plant you eat, sport.


Quote: Its a cost benefit analysis, how much harm do you cause so you can eat what you like to eat?

STOP. This isn't about us eating "just what we like", asshole. You are trying to make us out to be selfish and it['s disingenuous as fuck. I didn't fucking ask for life to be like this. Piss the fuck off.


Quote:Once you get a handle on how much damage you do,

....According to some fucktard on the internet (YOU)? Fuck off.



Quote:then question is, was it worth it?

I live another day. It's worth it to me. Go fuck yourself.



Quote: For me, not even close.


Good. So all that's left is for you to kill yourself, and you will never again adversely impact the environment. It's really the only moral thing you can do. According to your own cult theology.


Quote: I know that sounds really preachy,


NO. IT *IS* REALLY PREACHY.


Quote:but when I feel weak and really want a hamburger, that is the line of moral reasoning I use e]to recenter myself.

Don't really give a fuck what tools you use to keep yourself brainwashed.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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28-04-2014, 10:52 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 10:45 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 10:36 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  It difficult to have a discussion about veganism without offending people. The whole topic has a moral premise. I can't say I am right without implying that you are wrong, I can only try and put it in the most respectful cordial way possible. The alternative is I don't argue my point at all. This is an option I often elect but not here in this thread today. Please know I respect you and everyone else here and only want to try and spark a discussion.

No, it's not. You discuss veganism without being a pretentious douchebag. See? Simple. No one gets offended How have I gained such wisdom?? Because I have friends who are vegans and aren't preachy dickbags about it. We have discussions about it all the time and no one's feelings get hurt. It's because they don't start their arguments with a "I'm better than you because" type statement.

Don't tell me you respect me right after you've just gotten done stating that I'm irrational and morally inferior because I eat meat. That would only be slightly less disingenuous than me telling me I respect you after telling you to go fuck yourself.

You keep avoiding the questions that are asked of you by either ignoring them, claiming you don't want to discuss the arguments (while making your own arguments), or giving idiotic non-answers hoping that no one will notice.

This is not the way to make a point while not offending anyone.

I'm sorry, it wasn't my intention to offend anyone, only present my point of view.
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28-04-2014, 10:57 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 10:52 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 10:45 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  No, it's not. You discuss veganism without being a pretentious douchebag. See? Simple. No one gets offended How have I gained such wisdom?? Because I have friends who are vegans and aren't preachy dickbags about it. We have discussions about it all the time and no one's feelings get hurt. It's because they don't start their arguments with a "I'm better than you because" type statement.

Don't tell me you respect me right after you've just gotten done stating that I'm irrational and morally inferior because I eat meat. That would only be slightly less disingenuous than me telling me I respect you after telling you to go fuck yourself.

You keep avoiding the questions that are asked of you by either ignoring them, claiming you don't want to discuss the arguments (while making your own arguments), or giving idiotic non-answers hoping that no one will notice.

This is not the way to make a point while not offending anyone.

I'm sorry, it wasn't my intention to offend anyone, only present my point of view.

Protip: Telling people you're better than them and continuing to tell them how MUCH better they are, all while making asinine assumptions about their moral compass is a fucking retarded way to go about NOT offending people.

She turned me into a NEWT. I got better, though.

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28-04-2014, 10:57 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 10:21 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 10:16 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  No. you OBVIOUSLY would prefer to just press your delusion on us without question. Fuck off.




NO. You won't do so for us, why should we with you. Piss off.



Tough shit that you cannot pass insurmountable hurdles. I am sure it is also frustrating as shit for theist apologists that we refuse to accept their batshittery as well.





Gaslight much, asshole? You just fucking said it in so many fucking words. including your claim that being an omnivore is somehow "wrong". Don't try to piss down our backs and tell us it's raining. You'll wind up with a great big hole full of double-ought buck where you fucking pecker used to be.




Which pretty much leaves vegans out.




Yeah we get a dozen theist trolls here a week who think eactly the same way you do.



YOU have already demonstrated that YOU can't express this "sentiment" -- which is actually precisely the "vegan argument" you LIE to us and claim you don't want to present -- without judging, criticizing, and insulting us.




See, moron, we don't HAVE a faith. BECAUSE we examined and rejected the batshit-crazy claims of theists. Like we reject the batshit-crazy (and the INEVITABLE) sideways and passive-aggressive claims of vegans like you.




What the fuck is a "Dokens"? You call yourself an atheist? I don't believe you. We approach your dubious, fallacious, emotional brainwashed dogmatic claims about food in precisely the same way as we do theists' brainwashed claims. We find them wanting.


Go take a flying fuck at a rolling doughnut. Go take a flying fuck at the moon.





BULLSHIT.

I am pretty far into "getting into it", your right.

Yeah. You fucking LIED. You had no intention whatsoever of NOT "getting into it".



Quote: I get carried away, i am passionate about it


Yeah, just like every other fucking evangelist crusader troll who wades in here spouting bullshit.


Quote: and its frustrating sometimes to talk about it with people of opposing views.

Yes, because we shoot the shit out of your brainwashed horseshit apologetics. That should tell you something.


Quote: If you would like to discuss it I would be happy to.

No, I fucking DON'T. But I already AM, and you can stuff your condescension right up your ass with the rest of your bullshit you have tried to pull here.


Quote: I am trying my best to both make my point and not offend people,

No, you are not. Fuck you and fuck your gaslighting.

Quote: but I see that I have, so far as you are concerned any way, failed. Again, I'm sorry if I said something unfair or inappropriate.

Fuck you and fuck your crocodile-tear apology that you are using as a red herring to avoid my refutations of your batshit-crazy dogma. Be sorry BEFORE you do it, and you won't fucking do it. The best way you can apologize now is to go slink back under whatever rock you came in here from and don't fucking come back.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


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28-04-2014, 10:59 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 10:49 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 10:43 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I do appreciate your points. The problem with any moral discussion, especially when without a religious context, is that in the end there is no absolute justification for any moral belief. Morality doesn't exist, its an interpretation of actual events. For practical reason you have to invoke some sense of relativism in order to make any sense of the world. In essence you have to start somewhere, lend it validity and truth, and build on it from there.

If you operate in a completely different moral framework than my own, then I can't argue with you. The axioms you use to define your moral theory are different then mine, by definition, according to your morality in this example, I would be wrong.
I would argue however that most of us have a similar enough moral theory. If we agree on some basic assumptions, for example that the lives of animals have value and are worthy of moral consideration, then we can make logical arguments based upon those assumptions. If those assumptions are not accurate, if that doesn't apply to you, then yes everything I said is exactly hot air.

And what are these "logical arguments"? Because I'd REALLY love to see something logical come out of you.... Dodgy

Well the logical framework of my argument, presented deductively is as follows:

1) It is morally wrong to kill an animal without justification (presumed to be true acknowledge that the "justification clause" is ambiguous)

2) You must kill an animal in order to eat it

If you kill an animal to eat it, it must be justified or its morally wrong (follows from 1 and 2)

3) Killing an animal in order to eat it is not justified

conclusion: Eating animals is wrong

I use inductive arguments to justify the premises. I made some points in my previous posts, but I can repeat them if that would make my stance more clear.
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28-04-2014, 11:04 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 10:31 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 10:19 PM)cjlr Wrote:  If one finds the justifications of veganism so profound and compelling, one surely would be able to share same, no?

I think a lot about how come more people are thinking more critically about veganism. What we eat is central to who we think we are. As an intellectual exercise, try to pretend to be vegan for a week. You might be suprised how strange it feels, not because the food is different, but because you feel so alienated from the life you use to live. It difficult and challenging to think about something so core to your cultural identity like that. At least it was for me, I don't claim to speak for anybody else when I say that.

Why don't you just think about only eating dog shit for a week. You might be surprised at how strange it feels blah blah blah.....fuck off.


Quote:
Quote:Eating animals can at least be framed and judged as a coherent matter. Though one must be very careful to distinguish between the abstracted matters of principle and specific contingent circumstances. It would also be helpful to remember that bluntly dogmatic absolute stances are of very little value in a nuanced, contextual world.

Each vegan would feel differently about that. I am not an absolutist,

Yes, you fucking ARE. You claimed right here in this forum that eating meat is WRONG.


Quote: I believe all morality is relative, veganism not excluded.

Then go the fuck away and take your evangelistic FAIL with you.


Quote:In the relevant content of a modern, first world society, where alternative food is readily available and plentiful,

No, it's fucking ISN'T. Nor is it adequately nutritious, no matter what yoru brainwashing tells you.


Quote: where eating meat is a matter of choice and not survival,

That world doesn't exist. You are deluding yourself and no one is buying your bullshit.


Quote: I think the moral framework I presented holds up. At least it does for me.

Fine for YOU. FUCK you when you try to push it on everyone else.


Quote:Would be happy to deciminate it though if you care to.

Fuck off.

Quote:
Quote:Animal derived products is a thing which is literally impossible to define. So there's that.

As a person who reads a lot of labels and does a lot of research into the products I use, couldn't agree more! There is a lot of grey area for sure.

So you are a hypocrite too. Take your moralizing down the fucking road.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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28-04-2014, 11:08 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 10:36 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 10:31 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  You have neither made a valid point, nor avoided offending people. You have come here, pretensions held high, to tell us how morally and rationally superior vegans are and then pretended to mean no offense. You further insult our intelligence by being an utter hypocrite, saying "Here, listen to all the reasons I'm right, but don't you dare tell me how I may be wrong"

I don't agree with Taq's tactics often, but on this one, I'm with him.

It difficult to have a discussion about veganism without offending people.

-- And you are too fucking stupid to figure out just WHY.


Quote:The whole topic has a moral premise.

Yes, it's just another batshit religious cult. Like Monnies or Hare Krishnas.


Quote:I can't say I am right without implying that you are wrong, I can only try and put it in the most respectful cordial way possible.

And yet you STILL are going to claim that you are morally "right" and we are morally "wrong". There is no "polite" way to be an asshole, asshole.



Quote: The alternative is I don't argue my point at all.

Which is what you should fucking do -- NOT argue your "point". What we fucking eat is none of your fucking business.



Quote:This is an option I often elect but not here in this thread today.

And how is that going for you now, dumbass?


Quote:Please know I respect you and everyone else here and only want to try and spark a discussion.

Bullshit. If you respected us you wouldn't be trying to pull your shit on us.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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28-04-2014, 11:12 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 10:59 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 10:49 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  And what are these "logical arguments"? Because I'd REALLY love to see something logical come out of you.... Dodgy

Well the logical framework of my argument, presented deductively is as follows:

1) It is morally wrong to kill an animal without justification (presumed to be true acknowledge that the "justification clause" is ambiguous)

2) You must kill an animal in order to eat it

If you kill an animal to eat it, it must be justified or its morally wrong (follows from 1 and 2)

3) Killing an animal in order to eat it is not justified

conclusion: Eating animals is wrong

I use inductive arguments to justify the premises. I made some points in my previous posts, but I can repeat them if that would make my stance more clear.

So I suppose survival and proper nutrition of humans isn't justification? Then what justification does ANY creature have to eat anything?



No, you're logic goes something like this.

I want to feel morally superior and really smug.

Vegans claim moral superiority and are really smug. besides it's really trendy.

I'll be a vegan! YAAAAAY!!!! TO THE SMUGMOBILE!!!!



I'm out. Taq, have fun.

She turned me into a NEWT. I got better, though.

"Let me give you some advice, bastard: never forget what you are. The rest of the world will not. Wear it like armor, and it can never be used to hurt you." - Tyrion Lannister
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28-04-2014, 11:13 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 10:47 PM)nach_in Wrote:  I for one didn't take offence in any of the things you said. Yeah, at some point you come off as smug or righteous, but you're talking morals, so for me it's expected to sound like that in this kind of conversation.

I still haven't found any compelling arguments though, actually the only argument you stand by is "if you believe that killing animals is wrong, then it's logical that eating animals is bad". That may be up for debate, but that's exactly the opposite of an atheistic "way of thinking", it's the equivalent of "if you believe in the bible then it's logical that god exists".

Facepalm

Well the question is, do you believe killing animals is wrong? Morality is relative, if you answer "no" to that question I can't argue with you. The problem is people don't usually answer "no" to that questions, it usually "depends", and that is where the debate happens. I say it depends too. I just draw the line in a different place, and I have been trying to explain why the line I draw makes more sense.
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28-04-2014, 11:14 PM (This post was last modified: 28-04-2014 11:19 PM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 10:43 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Blah blah blah.....
I would argue however that most of us have a similar enough moral theory. If we agree on some basic assumptions, for example that the lives of animals have value and are worthy of moral consideration, then we can make logical arguments based upon those assumptions. If those assumptions are not accurate, if that doesn't apply to you, then yes everything I said is exactly hot air.

And look -- yet another evangelical apologist tactic -- employ a False Dichotomy Fallacy and hope no one notices it! -- And at the same time insinuate that if we don't see things as you do, we are immoral, compassionless, illogical, unreasonable, and stupid.


Eat shit. That way you aren't killing anything in order to survive -- oh, but wait -- even that isn't right, because there are all sorts of microorganisms in shit that you would be killing. Just like all the living microbes you kill with every glass of water you drink.

No, that's it -- in order to be morally pure and do no harm to this world, you're just going to have to kill yourself. According to your own theology. I can lend you my shotgun if you need it.






It's hawg-boilin' time, y'all!








(28-04-2014 10:49 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  And what are these "logical arguments"? Because I'd REALLY love to see something logical come out of you.... Dodgy

^^^THIS.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


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