How do Aethist think about veganism?
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28-04-2014, 11:19 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 11:13 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 10:47 PM)nach_in Wrote:  I for one didn't take offence in any of the things you said. Yeah, at some point you come off as smug or righteous, but you're talking morals, so for me it's expected to sound like that in this kind of conversation.

I still haven't found any compelling arguments though, actually the only argument you stand by is "if you believe that killing animals is wrong, then it's logical that eating animals is bad". That may be up for debate, but that's exactly the opposite of an atheistic "way of thinking", it's the equivalent of "if you believe in the bible then it's logical that god exists".

Facepalm

Well the question is, do you believe killing animals is wrong? Morality is relative, if you answer "no" to that question I can't argue with you. The problem is people don't usually answer "no" to that questions, it usually "depends", and that is where the debate happens. I say it depends too. I just draw the line in a different place, and I have been trying to explain why the line I draw makes more sense.

No you haven't you just assumed it's always wrong (hardly a "depends") and just rolled with it.

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28-04-2014, 11:19 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 10:52 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I'm sorry, it wasn't my intention to offend anyone, only present my point of view.

You are a fucking liar.

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28-04-2014, 11:26 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 10:59 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 10:49 PM)itsnotmeitsyou Wrote:  And what are these "logical arguments"? Because I'd REALLY love to see something logical come out of you.... Dodgy

Well the logical framework of my argument, presented deductively is as follows:

1) It is morally wrong to kill an animal without justification (presumed to be true acknowledge that the "justification clause" is ambiguous)

CIRCULAR ARGUMENT IS CIRCULAR. PREMISE IS THE CONCLUSION. Your argument is invalid (and unsound).


Quote: 2) You must kill an animal in order to eat it


Naw, man, we can just anesthetize it and cut its legs off. WIN-WIN!

Quote:If you kill an animal to eat it, it must be justified or its morally wrong (follows from 1 and 2)



CIRCULAR ARGUMENT IS CIRCULAR. PREMISE IS THE CONCLUSION. Your argument is invalid (and unsound).

Quote:3) Killing an animal in order to eat it is not justified

That is an assertion, not a premise. Many Questions/Begging the Question Fallacy. Your argument is invalid (and unsound).


Quote:conclusion: Eating animals is wrong

Premise is the conclusion. Your argument is invalid (and unsound).

Quote:I use inductive arguments to justify the premises.

You use your conclusion to justify the premeses, which are loaded.


Quote: I made some points in my previous posts, but I can repeat them if that would make my stance more clear.
You haven't made ANY points. And no, repeating the same bullshit over and over doesn't make it true (Argumentum Ad Nauseum Fallacy).


Now go the fuck away.

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28-04-2014, 11:29 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 11:19 PM)nach_in Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 11:13 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Well the question is, do you believe killing animals is wrong? Morality is relative, if you answer "no" to that question I can't argue with you. The problem is people don't usually answer "no" to that questions, it usually "depends", and that is where the debate happens. I say it depends too. I just draw the line in a different place, and I have been trying to explain why the line I draw makes more sense.

No you haven't you just assumed it's always wrong (hardly a "depends") and just rolled with it.

I can understand how you might have interpreted that from what I wrote. Each vegan answers this differently, but here is my answer.

If you life is on the line, eat whatever you want. People, animals, its all the same. I think people who need animal products for medicine are doing just fine. My opinion of course, people draw the line in different places. I think are ancestors who ate meat in order to live another day where behaving in, so far as I am concerned, a perfectly morally way.

We don't eat meat to survive though, we eat meat because we like it. The price the animal pays, both in it life and the experience of be raised in a factory farm (not true for all animals but increasingly true for most), is not worth the benefit people get from eating it. If you hold a different position, I would be interested to hear it and how come you think so.
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28-04-2014, 11:31 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 11:13 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 10:47 PM)nach_in Wrote:  I for one didn't take offence in any of the things you said. Yeah, at some point you come off as smug or righteous, but you're talking morals, so for me it's expected to sound like that in this kind of conversation.

I still haven't found any compelling arguments though, actually the only argument you stand by is "if you believe that killing animals is wrong, then it's logical that eating animals is bad". That may be up for debate, but that's exactly the opposite of an atheistic "way of thinking", it's the equivalent of "if you believe in the bible then it's logical that god exists".

Facepalm

Well the question is, do you believe killing animals is wrong?

If a bear is chewing on your fucking daughter, is it wrong to kill it?

Your question is loaded.


Quote: Morality is relative, if you answer "no" to that question I can't argue with you.

So go the fuck away.


Quote:The problem is people don't usually answer "no" to that questions, it usually "depends", and that is where the debate happens. I say it depends too. I just draw the line in a different place, and I have been trying to explain why the line I draw makes more sense.

You can draw the line anywhere you want for you. Where we draw it is none of your fucking business. And your proselytizing here is only revealing what a stupid control junkie you are -- just like every other brainwashed fucking vegan on the fucking planet.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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28-04-2014, 11:37 PM (This post was last modified: 28-04-2014 11:43 PM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
So this is what you do, attempt to ignore people who tear your bullshit snake oil pitch to shreds? We see that sort of shit here all the time, pussy fail trolls who come in here and can't take the heat, and simply pretend that the ones who are shredding your asses aren't there. Because all you are doing is letting everyone here know what a pussy fucking fail troll you are. Pussy.


(28-04-2014 11:29 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 11:19 PM)nach_in Wrote:  No you haven't you just assumed it's always wrong (hardly a "depends") and just rolled with it.

I can understand how you might have interpreted that from what I wrote. Each vegan answers this differently, but here is my answer.

Yeah, because it's precisely what you claimed. Gaslight much, asshole?


Quote:If you life is on the line, eat whatever you want.

Our lives are on the line every fucking day.


Quote:People, animals, its all the same. I think people who need animal products for medicine are doing just fine. My opinion of course, people draw the line in different places. I think are ancestors who ate meat in order to live another day where behaving in, so far as I am concerned, a perfectly morally way.

*our

And we do the same today. Fuck the hell off.


Quote:We don't eat meat to survive though, we eat meat because we like it.

Bullshit. You can assert that all day if you want, but that doesn't make any less bullshit.


Quote: The price the animal pays, both in it life and the experience of be raised in a factory farm (not true for all animals but increasingly true for most), is not worth the benefit people get from eating it.

That is your opinion. And you can't avoid (per your disclaimer) that you are making a gross generalization about factory farms as well.


Quote:If you hold a different position, I would be interested to hear it and how come you think so.

No, you fucking wouldn't be interested at all, as you have attempted to ignore all of the "different positions" that have been presented to you.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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28-04-2014, 11:45 PM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(28-04-2014 11:29 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 11:19 PM)nach_in Wrote:  No you haven't you just assumed it's always wrong (hardly a "depends") and just rolled with it.

I can understand how you might have interpreted that from what I wrote. Each vegan answers this differently, but here is my answer.

If you life is on the line, eat whatever you want. People, animals, its all the same. I think people who need animal products for medicine are doing just fine. My opinion of course, people draw the line in different places. I think are ancestors who ate meat in order to live another day where behaving in, so far as I am concerned, a perfectly morally way.

We don't eat meat to survive though, we eat meat because we like it. The price the animal pays, both in it life and the experience of be raised in a factory farm (not true for all animals but increasingly true for most), is not worth the benefit people get from eating it. If you hold a different position, I would be interested to hear it and how come you think so.

I don't really care about the animal, I'd rather not make it suffer as I think cruelty is bad for humans. If it makes you feel bad about yourself, then don't eat meat, but don't come telling me I'm immoral because your feelings are over sensitive.

If vegans used half the time and effort they spend on preaching subjective and arbitrary morals on helping develop artificially grown, edible and tasty, meat then we wouldn't have this conversation.

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29-04-2014, 12:11 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
It's obviously in our evolutionary makeup to eat meat. It's also everywhere cultural.

I know only one family of vegans. And, for them it's not just a dietary choice but a way of life--a philosophy to live by.

However, the children of the vegan family have dietary needs that their vegan diet does not meet. Once babies are off breast milk, they need to ingest an amount of fat for brain growth that the vegan diet cannot meet. So it turns out that fat is a necessary element for brain growth for at least the first 3 years.

Well, eventually all the kids had to go to the doctor for slight malnutrition and iron deficiency, not to say every vegan child is malnourished. This mom spends quite a bit of time in the garden, researching and planning healthy meals for all of them, but well, the kids remain pale and a bit undernourished despite the prescribed iron pills.

Now what could be so bad about a bit of succulent lamb and fish for those little kiddos?

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29-04-2014, 12:29 AM (This post was last modified: 29-04-2014 12:36 AM by Monster_Riffs.)
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
I am an athlete. I am a full time martial arts instructor and have workex with some very high end athletes over the years. Two things I have never seen together are a gold medal and a vegan diet.

You said you have to fight the cravings, this is not an emotional issue. Dopamine does serve a purpose in humans, our body often craves specific things and there's a reason, to function at top end, lift weights, run and spar we need carbohydrates, protein, vitamins and iron etc; as a vegetable, Broccoli is high in iron but you need to eat 2 sacks of it to match the iron in 1 8oz steak.

You say the science is off with food and people quote from their favourite sfudy, that is a total strawman. There are lots of studies because food is prevalent in our culture, stick to the peer reviewed scientific studies and you will find very consistent data to demonstrate that the nutrients we need are consistent in the same food sources.

You cannot dismiss the argument from evolution because it is what we have evolved to eat. Without supplements, vegans and vegetarians suffer massively with their health if they live an above average lifestyle regarding activity.

I don't like animals suffering needlessly but I have no qualms about killing them. Just as a lion wouldn't go for the lentil soup over me. ... My reasoning is sound, I embrace who/what I am, I strive to be the best me I can be and that involves using the optimum fuel. We even evolved to run on two legs to get our richest food source.

It is so often my experience with vegans and vegetarians that they falaciously assume the position of moral high ground, believing themselves to be superior, when in actual fact you deny who and what we are, you deliberately use inflammatory terminology like kill, where the word eat would suffice, that says it lot about you not us. I do kill animals for food and I am not ashamed of it. It's the over passive, patronising stance that infuriates me, you assume you're superior when in actual fact it merely masks the point that you have failed to come to terms with what we are and don't have the stomach to do what needs to be done to function as an apex predator.

Rant rant rant, ... aside from that, you're probably an alright kinda guy Smile

I'll just play the 'can I help you' lick!!!
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29-04-2014, 12:45 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
I don't know a lot about nutrition and I won't claim that I do. If you care to look into it, you can find volumes on the subject and make a decision for yourself. Everything I have read has told me you can raise children, work out, be pregnant, or whatever on a vegan diet if you watch your nutrition and eat smart, maybe take a vitamin or a supplement if you need one. You don't have to take my word for it though, and you probably shouldn't.

Also, thinks for the last bit. Really needed that little pick me up Smile <3
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