How do Aethist think about veganism?
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29-04-2014, 08:31 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
Hey, question!
How do you think about cloned meat?
It can't feel pain because it doesn't have a brain.

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29-04-2014, 09:19 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 08:20 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 08:05 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  cjlr made a great point for me. I have heard the "I'm too small to make a difference" argument before, and I think the question you have to ask yourself is "would the world be a better place if nobody ate animals?". If the answer to that is yes then you you should consider which world you want to be a part of. After all, the only way we as a species can stop abusing animals is if everybody, one person at a time, makes a commitment to stop abusing animals!

Substantiate some of your god-damned assertions, bud.

We all know what you think; you've blindly trumpeted that since the OP.

Unless you're capable of explaining why there is no discussion to be had.

(29-04-2014 08:05 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I understand it is tempting to draw parallels between eating meat and child labor. As the saying goes, two wrongs doesn't make a right. Many vegans are very conscientious of things like fair trade and working conditions for third world countries, and some of us aren't. Its a different topic worthy of its own debate, but it doesn't have any bearing on the moral question of eating meat.

Disingenuously loaded, and once again wholly predicated on subjective precepts.

(29-04-2014 08:05 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I haven't seen any evidence or any good arguments for how come we need animal bits for us to be healthy. While I don't claim to be an expert, I have done a lot of research. The biggest problems facing vegans iron deficiency and getting enough calcium. As it turns out though, pretty much all soy milk and other alternatives are calcium fortified and you can get plenty of iron from things like beans and spinach.

Then you haven't done the research. It is extraordinarily difficult to derive complete nutrition from a vegan diet, even with supplements.

(29-04-2014 08:05 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  If you eat in a "normal" vegan way your diet is rather low in protien, although it doesn't have to be low in fat. You can use readily available items like soy powder or whey protien if you intend to bulk up. If you care to look into it, there are many athletes in very demanding sports who are vegan. Matt Danzig, professionally MMA fighter, walks around at 170 pounds completely shredded, and he was vegan during his whole run on the ultimate fighter show and for all of his UFC MMA bouts.

Anecdotes are not data.

He's sure as shit the exception, and you know it. If you pop enough supplements and drugs, it doesn't matter what you eat.

(29-04-2014 08:05 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  PaleolitchicFreeThinker, I understand the point you are trying to make. We can't demand of animals the same kind of moral reasoning and intellectualism that we do of people. Its precisely because we have higher thinking faculties and can do things like use logic and empathy that we must hold ourselves to a higher standard than animals. Animals do lots of terrible things in nature, nature itself is not "good" or "benign". That doesn't mean we should mimic it. For my own part, I think of animals like most poeple think of their pets, or of very small children. They feel, and think, and have personalities, and can love and be loved, but they definitely aren't people. Worthy of protecting sure, but I am not willing to give them the right to vote or let them drive cars. Would send a dog to prison for life for murder either, it just doesn't make sense to judge people and animals equally.

What without why is not a discussion.

You have explained nothing.

You've made loaded and borderline dishonest appeals to deontological feels while staking out pseudo-objective and sanctimonious high ground. That's not compelling. Nor is it productive.

Its a debate on a moral theory, I think that is the best you can do. As a challenge, create a better argument against murder, or pedophilia. The best you can do is moral proscriptions, or make appeals to a higher moral authority or ideal. That doesn't mean its not productive and it doesn't make all such arguments invalid.

Morality is intangible and inexact. Its not a real thing but a subjective interpretation. We have to except some things as true without basis in order for a moral discussion to be possible. My axioms are very clear:

The lives of all animals have value.

Taking the life of an animal is immoral without good justification or cause

Good justification or cause includes to save your own life, or the life of another person or animal

Its not exhaustive. You can't make absolutist moral proscription, real life circumstances make you qualify everything. I can't justify 'why' these things are true, no more than anyone can justify 'why' any moral theory is true. If you reject my axioms, if you build your moral theory on an entirely distinct on non inclusive set of principles, then there is no argument I can form to persuade you.
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29-04-2014, 09:20 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 08:31 AM)Alex_Leonardo Wrote:  Hey, question!
How do you think about cloned meat?
It can't feel pain because it doesn't have a brain.

I don't think I would eat it personally, but I don't have any good arguments for why it would be wrong. Interestingly enough, peta has a million dollar bounty for the first person to develop a cow without a brain.
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29-04-2014, 09:23 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
I've toyed with the idea of becoming a vegetarian many times before. As an omnivore I understand that continuing to eat meat is the best nutritional option, but I also have the ability to choose....I dunno.

I think trying to shame people for eating meat is ridiculous however.
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29-04-2014, 09:31 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 08:26 AM)Dom Wrote:  
(28-04-2014 10:16 PM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  Well my position is that its wrong to kill animals without good cause. I miss all the foods I used to eat a lot, despite what many vegans will tell you it never gets easy to fight the food cravings. That being said I haven't tasted anything so good its worth killing for.

You are starting from the view point that life is sacred. I disagree. Sometimes death is much preferable. The quality of life is what holds life's value.

In nature, many times when the quality of life has been diminished by illness or injury, animals will offer themselves to predators or crawl into a hole to starve themselves to death. In some cases the other members of the group will kill or eject the suffering animal because it attracts predators. In some cases mothers will quickly kill their offspring in view of a torturous death looming. Even when we are talking about animals, the survival instinct only goes so far, there comes a time when death is preferable.

So then, when the quality of life is preserved, and a hungry omnivore comes along, a sudden and painless death is a perfectly humane solution. If the animal is not aware of death approaching and does not suffer during death, it does not care about death.

If you really care about the animals, work towards bettering their quality of life and dignity in death. I am all for that.

If you are struggling with cravings, you are NOT getting what your body needs.

I do very much understand where you are coming from ethically, nature is very cruel and everyone seems to be eating everyone else. The entire flora and fauna of the world depends on eating other living things.

When you eat plants, you are eating living beings too, and after many years of experience with plants, I actually do believe that they are sentient. They do respond to outside stimuli in many ways, not just the sun and rain etc, but to such things as animals munching on them. One example is a honeysuckle shrub that used to grow by the fence inside a pasture for Llamas. In the course of 4 years it literally walked to the other side of the fence by making new shoots only on that safe side. Not exactly speedy, but the shrub succeeded and is a thriving, gorgeous plant now.

The world is what it is. You are endowed with a lot of empathy, as am I. It can be difficult, even exasperating, to live surrounded by killing of all sorts when you have an excess of empathy. I get that.

But you will need to establish a healthy attitude towards death if you are going to have quality of life yourself. Working towards keeping everything alive is futile, it doesn't work because of the way nature subsists. What you can work towards is increasing the quality of life of other life. You can buy meat only from small farms that allow their animals to enjoy life. There are many of these, and they are in need of support. You may have to get a freezer and drive a ways to pick up your meat, but you will be supporting a good way of life for the animals.

That is what you should be working towards, because it is the only thing that has a chance in hell of succeeding in making things better for the animals you love. Support the small, humane farms.

I understand very well your sentiment, and its not very far from how I feel about death and killing animals for food myself. My opinions where the same as yours when I first became vegan, with the exception that i didn't believe you could reliably find farms that treated animals humanely and with dignity. I think if you consider the scenario where a chicken is slaughtered on a factory farm, and a deer is shot in the wild, one definitely feels more wrong then the other. I certainly wouldn't say I am avidly against mercy killing either.

As I said in a previous post though, its hard to get around the simple causal relationship between killing and eating. Its harder still to justify the killing and eating when it is so clearly optional. I think the best scenario is you treat animals humanely and ethically AND you don't eat them too.

Lastly, I am a vegan for other reasons as well. There are strong humanitarian and environmental arguments for veganism also. Even if it were possible to raise enough meat for everyone and treat them humanely (and it might, not sure), there are still ecological facts, such as it takes a multiple more resources to raise cattle as it does an equivalent quantity of grain, that should be considered.
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29-04-2014, 09:34 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 09:31 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 08:26 AM)Dom Wrote:  You are starting from the view point that life is sacred. I disagree. Sometimes death is much preferable. The quality of life is what holds life's value.

In nature, many times when the quality of life has been diminished by illness or injury, animals will offer themselves to predators or crawl into a hole to starve themselves to death. In some cases the other members of the group will kill or eject the suffering animal because it attracts predators. In some cases mothers will quickly kill their offspring in view of a torturous death looming. Even when we are talking about animals, the survival instinct only goes so far, there comes a time when death is preferable.

So then, when the quality of life is preserved, and a hungry omnivore comes along, a sudden and painless death is a perfectly humane solution. If the animal is not aware of death approaching and does not suffer during death, it does not care about death.

If you really care about the animals, work towards bettering their quality of life and dignity in death. I am all for that.

If you are struggling with cravings, you are NOT getting what your body needs.

I do very much understand where you are coming from ethically, nature is very cruel and everyone seems to be eating everyone else. The entire flora and fauna of the world depends on eating other living things.

When you eat plants, you are eating living beings too, and after many years of experience with plants, I actually do believe that they are sentient. They do respond to outside stimuli in many ways, not just the sun and rain etc, but to such things as animals munching on them. One example is a honeysuckle shrub that used to grow by the fence inside a pasture for Llamas. In the course of 4 years it literally walked to the other side of the fence by making new shoots only on that safe side. Not exactly speedy, but the shrub succeeded and is a thriving, gorgeous plant now.

The world is what it is. You are endowed with a lot of empathy, as am I. It can be difficult, even exasperating, to live surrounded by killing of all sorts when you have an excess of empathy. I get that.

But you will need to establish a healthy attitude towards death if you are going to have quality of life yourself. Working towards keeping everything alive is futile, it doesn't work because of the way nature subsists. What you can work towards is increasing the quality of life of other life. You can buy meat only from small farms that allow their animals to enjoy life. There are many of these, and they are in need of support. You may have to get a freezer and drive a ways to pick up your meat, but you will be supporting a good way of life for the animals.

That is what you should be working towards, because it is the only thing that has a chance in hell of succeeding in making things better for the animals you love. Support the small, humane farms.

I understand very well your sentiment, and its not very far from how I feel about death and killing animals for food myself. My opinions where the same as yours when I first became vegan, with the exception that i didn't believe you could reliably find farms that treated animals humanely and with dignity. I think if you consider the scenario where a chicken is slaughtered on a factory farm, and a deer is shot in the wild, one definitely feels more wrong then the other. I certainly wouldn't say I am avidly against mercy killing either.

As I said in a previous post though, its hard to get around the simple causal relationship between killing and eating. Its harder still to justify the killing and eating when it is so clearly optional. I think the best scenario is you treat animals humanely and ethically AND you don't eat them too.

Lastly, I am a vegan for other reasons as well. There are strong humanitarian and environmental arguments for veganism also. Even if it were possible to raise enough meat for everyone and treat them humanely (and it might, not sure), there are still ecological facts, such as it takes a multiple more resources to raise cattle as it does an equivalent quantity of grain, that should be considered.

Wait, are you the VeganAtheist?

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29-04-2014, 09:36 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 12:45 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  I don't know a lot about nutrition and I won't claim that I do.

Then quit pretending you know better than we do.


Quote: If you care to look into it[quote]

No. No more than I care to "look into" Hare Krishna or Moonyism or the People's Temple of Jim fucking Jones.


[quote], you can find volumes on the subject and make a decision for yourself.

You can find volumes and volumes of theology books on xtianity too, but that doesn't make any of them any less bullshit.


Quote:Everything I have read has told me you can raise children, work out, be pregnant, or whatever on a vegan diet if you watch your nutrition and eat smart, maybe take a vitamin or a supplement if you need one.

Yes because you limit yourself to cult books that espouse your cult party line.


Quote: You don't have to take my word for it though, and you probably shouldn't.

Damned right, we don't. So STFU.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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29-04-2014, 09:39 AM (This post was last modified: 29-04-2014 10:09 AM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 01:00 AM)sporehux Wrote:  I like your civility under hostile fire.


Um, no. Passive aggression -- in the form of sideways swipes and insinuations that we are not intelligent, uncompassionate, unreasonable, irrational, and stupid because we don't toe his batshit-crazy line -- is NOT civility. Not even close.



Quote:Cant say much about your dietary choices that hasn't already been said. I do think it amounts to child abuse if you infer a vegan animal cruelty guiltism onto teens or younger.

Meat Fat is critical to development.

I think it's child abuse to not allow your child to eat meat. The very reason that we developed big brains as a species is because of the meat in our diet. That isn't an opinion, that is a FACT. These people ignore that completely and jump up and down in our face demanding we join their cult. I say fuck them all.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
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29-04-2014, 09:42 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 09:39 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  I think it's child abuse to not allow your child to eat meat. The very reason that we developed big brains as a species is because of the meat in our diet. That isn't an opinion, that is a FACT. These people ignore that completely and jump up and down in our face demanding we join their cult. I say fuck them all.

This explains why he seems to be incapable of making an intelligent statement or a logical argument. His brain is deprived of the fatty acids it needs to function properly.

Excuse me, I'm making perfect sense. You're just not keeping up.

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29-04-2014, 09:43 AM
RE: How do Aethist think about veganism?
(29-04-2014 09:31 AM)Michael_Tadlock Wrote:  
(29-04-2014 08:26 AM)Dom Wrote:  You are starting from the view point that life is sacred. I disagree. Sometimes death is much preferable. The quality of life is what holds life's value.

In nature, many times when the quality of life has been diminished by illness or injury, animals will offer themselves to predators or crawl into a hole to starve themselves to death. In some cases the other members of the group will kill or eject the suffering animal because it attracts predators. In some cases mothers will quickly kill their offspring in view of a torturous death looming. Even when we are talking about animals, the survival instinct only goes so far, there comes a time when death is preferable.

So then, when the quality of life is preserved, and a hungry omnivore comes along, a sudden and painless death is a perfectly humane solution. If the animal is not aware of death approaching and does not suffer during death, it does not care about death.

If you really care about the animals, work towards bettering their quality of life and dignity in death. I am all for that.

If you are struggling with cravings, you are NOT getting what your body needs.

I do very much understand where you are coming from ethically, nature is very cruel and everyone seems to be eating everyone else. The entire flora and fauna of the world depends on eating other living things.

When you eat plants, you are eating living beings too, and after many years of experience with plants, I actually do believe that they are sentient. They do respond to outside stimuli in many ways, not just the sun and rain etc, but to such things as animals munching on them. One example is a honeysuckle shrub that used to grow by the fence inside a pasture for Llamas. In the course of 4 years it literally walked to the other side of the fence by making new shoots only on that safe side. Not exactly speedy, but the shrub succeeded and is a thriving, gorgeous plant now.

The world is what it is. You are endowed with a lot of empathy, as am I. It can be difficult, even exasperating, to live surrounded by killing of all sorts when you have an excess of empathy. I get that.

But you will need to establish a healthy attitude towards death if you are going to have quality of life yourself. Working towards keeping everything alive is futile, it doesn't work because of the way nature subsists. What you can work towards is increasing the quality of life of other life. You can buy meat only from small farms that allow their animals to enjoy life. There are many of these, and they are in need of support. You may have to get a freezer and drive a ways to pick up your meat, but you will be supporting a good way of life for the animals.

That is what you should be working towards, because it is the only thing that has a chance in hell of succeeding in making things better for the animals you love. Support the small, humane farms.

I understand very well your sentiment, and its not very far from how I feel about death and killing animals for food myself. My opinions where the same as yours when I first became vegan, with the exception that i didn't believe you could reliably find farms that treated animals humanely and with dignity. I think if you consider the scenario where a chicken is slaughtered on a factory farm, and a deer is shot in the wild, one definitely feels more wrong then the other. I certainly wouldn't say I am avidly against mercy killing either.

As I said in a previous post though, its hard to get around the simple causal relationship between killing and eating. Its harder still to justify the killing and eating when it is so clearly optional. I think the best scenario is you treat animals humanely and ethically AND you don't eat them too.

Lastly, I am a vegan for other reasons as well. There are strong humanitarian and environmental arguments for veganism also. Even if it were possible to raise enough meat for everyone and treat them humanely (and it might, not sure), there are still ecological facts, such as it takes a multiple more resources to raise cattle as it does an equivalent quantity of grain, that should be considered.

Your approach is pointless because you are going against nature and evolution. You cannot reverse evolution, at least not without a scientific breeding program.

What you are doing just leaves everything the way it is while you may be doing yourself harm.

I don't know where you live, but if you LOOK, you will find sustainable farms within driving distance.

Supporting them is the only way to actually help animals. The more people use them, the more these farms will spring up and the less animals will have to endure torture to feed an ever-growing population of humans.

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