How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
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20-03-2015, 09:31 PM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
I think that all of the activity of my TTA dialogue has shifted from the "evil" thread to this one.

I will try an idea.

What has been happening is I get a whole bunch of people coming at me with things that require a lot of conversation and time on my part. My time is limited, and I don't think I'll be able to address everyone. So when there is a bunch of people asking me or trying to lead me down different tangents, and I don't take that bait, it is concluded that I back nothing up.

I think that this is not a logic error on my part. I think it is a miscommunication error due to the circumstance. I therefore have an idea.

By Sunday morning, I plan to stop responding to posts on this thread and the "evil" thread that was started by soul. (If anyone is waiting for me to answer them, just let me know via PM. I'm losing track of tangents.)

After Sunday morning, my responses will be different. If I'm in a thread, and a person opens up a tangent, I will pick only one person to respond to, and we'll just continue until one of us says we're done.

I do not know how I would pick a person to respond to.

I don't know how that will work, but there's got to be a clearer way to have conversation than this. So, I'm going to give that a shot.

It's funny how this thread post really matches with the thread title. We are back to square one. I'm still trying to figure out how to reach out to non-Catholics. Only in this instance, I think it's technical.

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20-03-2015, 09:32 PM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 06:00 PM)DLJ Wrote:  But in typical TTA style the conversation took a different course.

C'est la vie.

Typical TTA style - there's a typical style around here? The offenders must be punished.

See here they are the bruises some were self-inflicted and some showed up along the way. - JF
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20-03-2015, 09:46 PM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 09:32 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(20-03-2015 06:00 PM)DLJ Wrote:  But in typical TTA style the conversation took a different course.

C'est la vie.

Typical TTA style - there's a typical style around here? The offenders must be punished.

To the Naughty Chair!!!

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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20-03-2015, 09:57 PM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 09:31 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  I think that all of the activity of my TTA dialogue has shifted from the "evil" thread to this one.

I will try an idea.

What has been happening is I get a whole bunch of people coming at me with things that require a lot of conversation and time on my part. My time is limited, and I don't think I'll be able to address everyone. So when there is a bunch of people asking me or trying to lead me down different tangents, and I don't take that bait, it is concluded that I back nothing up.

I think that this is not a logic error on my part. I think it is a miscommunication error due to the circumstance. I therefore have an idea.

By Sunday morning, I plan to stop responding to posts on this thread and the "evil" thread that was started by soul. (If anyone is waiting for me to answer them, just let me know via PM. I'm losing track of tangents.)

After Sunday morning, my responses will be different. If I'm in a thread, and a person opens up a tangent, I will pick only one person to respond to, and we'll just continue until one of us says we're done.

I do not know how I would pick a person to respond to.

I don't know how that will work, but there's got to be a clearer way to have conversation than this. So, I'm going to give that a shot.

It's funny how this thread post really matches with the thread title. We are back to square one. I'm still trying to figure out how to reach out to non-Catholics. Only in this instance, I think it's technical.

Another *heartfelt* explanation. Dodgy Come on dude. Why are atheists religious? I'll even give you options:

a. We have faith that there is no God
b. We have religious rituals celebrating that there is no God
c. We knock on doors and seek converts
d. We have a body of accepted dogma concerning the lack of a God
e. We go to war over ideologies

Pick any or all. Or make your own. Just tell me why you consider atheists religious.

You've spent so much time telling us you can't answer us when challenged, yet you *love* to throw out unsupported statements. Surely you yourself can see this kind of ducking and diving is hardly very dignified for a representative of the Holy One.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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20-03-2015, 09:58 PM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 07:35 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  So the thing I'm struggling with here is that you want to define atheism as a religion to show it is incorrect, right?

To show it is incorrect? No. I'm not out to show that it is incorrect right now. Not yet, anyway. Not in this thread.

(20-03-2015 07:35 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  (1) So are all religions incorrect? Are religions bad and is that why you want to fit atheism into the religious box so you can call it bad? If so, what is inherently wrong with religion?

All religions except mine are incorrect or incomplete at best.

I do not want to fit atheism into the religious box in order to call it bad. People in my circles merely nod their heads in agreement to the religiosity of atheism. My statement was of an observation. I was not intending to disprove atheism by it. Not yet.

What is inherently wrong with religion? Nothing, so long as it's mine.


(20-03-2015 07:35 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  ...or is it that religions other than your own are false because you know yours is true?

Yes.

(20-03-2015 07:35 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  It would seem that if (1) is true and all religions are bad then your own religion is bad... so it must be (2) you are going for, right? Your claim would then follow the logical structure of:
1. Catholicism is true
2. Catholicism is mutually exclusive with all other religions
3. Atheism is a religion
Therefore, Atheism is false.

Only a minor word correction.

It would seem that if (1) is true and all religions are bad then your own religion is bad... so it must be (2) you are going for, right? Your claim would then follow the logical structure of:
1. Catholicism is true
2. Catholicism is mutually exclusive from all other religions
3. Atheism is a religion
Therefore, Atheism is false.


(20-03-2015 07:35 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  But then it would seem that it doesn't really matter whether Atheism is a religion or not. It's a shell game and a diversion. The main point you need to establish is premise (1): Catholicism is true.
That's a mighty burden of proof to place upon yourself. It might be better to start with something smaller don't you think?

A diversion? Nah. I'm not trying to divert anyone. Again, I was just stating something I'd typically say about atheism (that it's a religion).

A mighty burden of proof on myself? Yes. Proving that Catholicism is true is not, exactly, my station in life--as I've explained throughout this thread. And also, because of that fact, I really haven't sought out to convert people here. Merely have discussions. But I have the feeling that a lot of regulars here have a particular direction in mind that they want me to go. There will be time for that. But first, I'm trying to figure out how to talk to people coherently. I'm hoping that organizing conversation after Sunday morning will work out for the kind of in-depth conversation that people accuse me of avoiding.


(20-03-2015 07:35 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(20-03-2015 01:13 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  I suppose the boldest lie is that atheists speak with assuredness that there is no Creator outside of this universe. In reality, atheists cannot prove this. They do not really know.

It is difficult to point to something beyond the universe when all you use to measure and detect things is the material. Trying to prove or disprove something beyond the material with simple limited material things will get you nowhere.

The ultimate problem, I suppose, is that atheists are materialists.

Ok, to show that atheism presents lies as absolute truths you must show the following:
1. That a given statement is a lie
2. That an atheist presented the lie as an absolute truth
3. That the lie being an absolute truth is a mainstream belief within the atheist population

1. "That a given statement is a lie?" Nah. The lie is in the atheist's bold confidence that there is No One out there. They have no proof He is not there.

2. Yes. Atheists here have presented this deception--that they have it completely figured out--as absolutely true. The atheists here are just so sure that they are right that there is no Creator.

3. Yes. I believe that this deception that the atheists put out--that they know that there is no God--is mainstream with the atheist population.

(20-03-2015 07:35 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  I think the proposition you want to want to work with from your post above is "there is no Creator outside of this universe". You want to show that it is a lie, and you want to show a consensus opinion among atheists with specific quotes from specific prominent atheists that this proposition is an absolute truth.

No. I'm not interested in proving my accusation. Perhaps it can be tackled after this weekend.

At some point in the future, do I want to show a consensus opinion from the atheists, including quotations from prominent atheists? Perhaps. Though, I'd also ask people at TTA.

(20-03-2015 07:35 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  I'm not completely sure what you mean by "lie" above. I would have thought it would mean "demonstrably false". So you want to show:
1. That "there is no Creator outside of this universe" is demonstrably false

No.

(20-03-2015 07:35 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  2. That an atheist has presented "there is no Creator outside of this universe" as an absolute truth

Yes. Therein is the deception.

(20-03-2015 07:35 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  3. That "there is no Creator outside of this universe" being an absolute truth is a mainstream belief within the atheist population.

That is an option.


(20-03-2015 07:35 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Above you say that atheists can't disprove a creator, but does this really make "there is no Creator outside of this universe" a lie, or does it make it unfalsifiable? Would you call all unfalsifiable beliefs lies?

Define unfalsifiable.

Atheists are not solid in their accusation that there is no Creator. They are bluffing. It is a deception. It is a lie. There are countless avenues to pursue this, and it takes years to explore them all.

(20-03-2015 07:35 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  But where I think you'll really trip up is that I'm not aware at all of "there is no Creator outside of this universe" being accepted by mainstream atheism as "absolute truth". Rather, I think you'll find most atheists hold it only provisionally true while they await compelling data and argument that may change their minds.

I know. But doesn't that make the "atheists" agnostics?

I'm not so sure the people at TTA are truly open-minded to that compelling data that you are talking about.

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20-03-2015, 09:59 PM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 09:57 PM)morondog Wrote:  
(20-03-2015 09:31 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  I think that all of the activity of my TTA dialogue has shifted from the "evil" thread to this one.

I will try an idea.

What has been happening is I get a whole bunch of people coming at me with things that require a lot of conversation and time on my part. My time is limited, and I don't think I'll be able to address everyone. So when there is a bunch of people asking me or trying to lead me down different tangents, and I don't take that bait, it is concluded that I back nothing up.

I think that this is not a logic error on my part. I think it is a miscommunication error due to the circumstance. I therefore have an idea.

By Sunday morning, I plan to stop responding to posts on this thread and the "evil" thread that was started by soul. (If anyone is waiting for me to answer them, just let me know via PM. I'm losing track of tangents.)

After Sunday morning, my responses will be different. If I'm in a thread, and a person opens up a tangent, I will pick only one person to respond to, and we'll just continue until one of us says we're done.

I do not know how I would pick a person to respond to.

I don't know how that will work, but there's got to be a clearer way to have conversation than this. So, I'm going to give that a shot.

It's funny how this thread post really matches with the thread title. We are back to square one. I'm still trying to figure out how to reach out to non-Catholics. Only in this instance, I think it's technical.

Another *heartfelt* explanation. Dodgy Come on dude. Why are atheists religious. I'll even give you options:

a. We have faith that there is no God
b. We have religious rituals celebrating that there is no God
c. We knock on doors and seek converts
d. We have a body of accepted dogma concerning the lack of a God
e. We go to war over ideologies

Pick any or all. Or make your own. Just tell me why you consider atheists religious.

You've spent so much time telling us you can't answer us when challenged, yet you *love* to throw out unsupported statements. Surely you yourself can see this kind of ducking and diving is hardly very dignified for a representative of the Holy One.

You've thrown out a lot of questions in the past couple of days. Pick one, and we can explore it next week.

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20-03-2015, 10:00 PM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 07:26 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Wouldn't that be the Christ-like thing to do? To be selfless for the sake of others?

Some people will do anything for sake.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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20-03-2015, 10:03 PM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 09:59 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  
(20-03-2015 09:57 PM)morondog Wrote:  Another *heartfelt* explanation. Dodgy Come on dude. Why are atheists religious. I'll even give you options:

a. We have faith that there is no God
b. We have religious rituals celebrating that there is no God
c. We knock on doors and seek converts
d. We have a body of accepted dogma concerning the lack of a God
e. We go to war over ideologies

Pick any or all. Or make your own. Just tell me why you consider atheists religious.

You've spent so much time telling us you can't answer us when challenged, yet you *love* to throw out unsupported statements. Surely you yourself can see this kind of ducking and diving is hardly very dignified for a representative of the Holy One.

You've thrown out a lot of questions in the past couple of days. Pick one, and we can explore it next week.

The one in the post you just answered, I pick that one. I don't need to fucken explore it. I need you to sack up and justify your statement, or admit that you're clueless.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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20-03-2015, 10:42 PM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 09:31 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  I'm still trying to figure out how to reach out to non-Catholics.


Try being less of an obfuscating douche-nozzle if you can. Drinking Beverage

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20-03-2015, 10:44 PM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...

Okay. How about this one. Next week:

How are atheists religious? Do atheists have faith there is no God?

The two questions seem closely related enough.

Sound good? I'll be answering directly to you only.

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