How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
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21-03-2015, 06:17 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(21-03-2015 01:36 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Saying that you don't believe in God sets the path of your psychology, moral direction, and ultimately your eternal direction. That choice colors everything about you.

What you refuse to understand is that saying "I don't believe" comes AFTER examining the claims, not before. Atheism is the result of skeptical inquiry into religious beliefs.

Under your view, how do you explain atheists who were religious and who spent years trying desperately to reinforce their faltering faith because the weight of the evidence was piling up against it? There are many on this board who really wanted to stay believers but couldn't get past the facts that were showing how flimsy the theistic claims were.

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21-03-2015, 06:24 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 08:30 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  
(20-03-2015 07:33 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Dude was like excommunicated from Suscipe Domine. ... I don't even know what to make of that.

If this place was run like that place, everyone would be banned.

Chas would be banned for being too terse. Bucky would be banned for being arrogant. Tongue You'd be banned for being weird and posting songs. Anjele would be banned for sarcasm -- I would be banned for being lewd.

I could really go on and on and on and on....

Terseness is bannable? Gasp

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21-03-2015, 06:27 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 08:34 PM)Anjele Wrote:  
(20-03-2015 08:30 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  If this place was run like that place, everyone would be banned.

Chas would be banned for being too terse. Bucky would be banned for being arrogant. Tongue You'd be banned for being weird and posting songs. Anjele would be banned for sarcasm -- I would be banned for being lewd.

I could really go on and on and on and on....

Damn - should I be offensive?


I mean offended....


...no, maybe I really mean offensive. Angel

No. You'd be banned for perfect (red) hair. Only a debil can have THAT perfect a head of red hair. Obviously you sold your soul to the debil for that. I think this thread is about to reach the lowest point a thread can get on TTA .... the posting of stir-fry recipes. Someone please alert Muffers he may be needed in aisle 3 for cultish clean-up. Big Grin

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21-03-2015, 06:41 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
Laramie, I'll clarify.

The question I want you to answer is related to your *statement* that atheism is a religion.

My *question* was simply why you think that. I don't require pages of answer. You threw it out as a throw away statement, almost something you took as everyone-knows-this.

I don't need personal replies or long-winded debates.

In the follow up post, *after* you had spent a lot of time avoiding answering the question posed, out of frustration, I offered you multiple choice *answers* to the question. You chose to understand those as further questions which OK fair enough, I think you could have read my post that way if you weren't paying too much attention - must do better at formatting.

All I want from you is a justification, not a "oh this'll take too long" or "oh this is a complex topic" for your statement that atheism is a religion. You seem to think of it as an obvious thing, I suspect that like many of my (ironically) protestant friends, it *is* taken as an obvious thing in the circles where you commonly discuss religion.

Now I'm asking you to take a second look and actually tell me if you can honestly say that atheism is a religion. You *are* allowed to back down and admit that you were wrong, you know. I've done it several times on this very forum. It is an educational experience. But yeah, if you remain firmly convinced that you're not wrong, then offer me some kind of minimal justification for the statement that atheism is a religion.

I would suggest that in general, the religious motivation for wanting atheism to be a religion is that then it is *just* another religion, another set of dogmatic beliefs not based in reason, hey ho, we're all as crazy as each other, pick your flavour but I'M RIGHT.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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21-03-2015, 06:46 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(21-03-2015 06:41 AM)morondog Wrote:  Laramie, I'll clarify.

The question I want you to answer is related to your *statement* that atheism is a religion.

My *question* was simply why you think that. I don't require pages of answer. You threw it out as a throw away statement, almost something you took as everyone-knows-this.

I don't need personal replies or long-winded debates.

In the follow up post, *after* you had spent a lot of time avoiding answering the question posed, out of frustration, I offered you multiple choice *answers* to the question. You chose to understand those as further questions which OK fair enough, I think you could have read my post that way if you weren't paying too much attention - must do better at formatting.

All I want from you is a justification, not a "oh this'll take too long" or "oh this is a complex topic" for your statement that atheism is a religion. You seem to think of it as an obvious thing, I suspect that like many of my (ironically) protestant friends, it *is* taken as an obvious thing in the circles where you commonly discuss religion.

Now I'm asking you to take a second look and actually tell me if you can honestly say that atheism is a religion. You *are* allowed to back down and admit that you were wrong, you know. I've done it several times on this very forum. It is an educational experience. But yeah, if you remain firmly convinced that you're not wrong, then offer me some kind of minimal justification for the statement that atheism is a religion.

I would suggest that in general, the religious motivation for wanting atheism to be a religion is that then it is *just* another religion, another set of dogmatic beliefs not based in reason, hey ho, we're all as crazy as each other, pick your flavour but I'M RIGHT.

What I would like to know is, if faith systems are "religions", and atheism is also "religion" what do you call the absence of BOTH ? Consider

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21-03-2015, 06:47 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
Also IMO though many religious disavow the idea that any other religion is right, they *do* like the idea that everyone is feeling some part of the elephant (as the Jain religion would say), because that means all other religions are partially right and they happen to have got the magic sauce *exactly* right. The guy who claims not to be feeling any elephant at all is *clearly* a weirdo and *is* feeling an elephant, it's just that he's too fucken dumb to realise it's an elephant.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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21-03-2015, 06:49 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(21-03-2015 06:46 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  What I would like to know is, if faith systems are "religions", and atheism is also "religion" what do you call the absence of BOTH ? Consider

A. Answer *my* question, since you said you would.

B. I don't know what you even mean? Do you mean that atheism is a 'faith system'?

Edit: Grrr Angry I wuz tricked!

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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21-03-2015, 06:51 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(21-03-2015 06:49 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(21-03-2015 06:46 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  What I would like to know is, if faith systems are "religions", and atheism is also "religion" what do you call the absence of BOTH ? Consider

A. Answer *my* question, since you said you would.

B. I don't know what you even mean? Do you mean that atheism is a 'faith system'?

Ah fuck. Sorry BB. Assumed you were Larry Tongue Lost the plot a bit.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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21-03-2015, 09:28 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(21-03-2015 06:51 AM)morondog Wrote:  
(21-03-2015 06:49 AM)morondog Wrote:  A. Answer *my* question, since you said you would.

B. I don't know what you even mean? Do you mean that atheism is a 'faith system'?

... Lost the plot a bit.

That would require us to make the assumption that at one point, you did indeed have the plot.
Personally, I don't think there's enough evidence to support that. Drinking Beverage

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21-03-2015, 10:04 AM (This post was last modified: 21-03-2015 10:08 AM by Hafnof.)
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 09:58 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  
(20-03-2015 07:35 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  It would seem that if (1) is true and all religions are bad then your own religion is bad... so it must be (2) you are going for, right? Your claim would then follow the logical structure of:
1. Catholicism is true
2. Catholicism is mutually exclusive from all other religions [Ed modified as per LaramieHirsch's suggestion]
3. Atheism is a religion
Therefore, Atheism is false.

But then it would seem that it doesn't really matter whether Atheism is a religion or not. It's a shell game and a diversion. The main point you need to establish is premise (1): Catholicism is true.
That's a mighty burden of proof to place upon yourself. It might be better to start with something smaller don't you think?

A diversion? Nah. I'm not trying to divert anyone. Again, I was just stating something I'd typically say about atheism (that it's a religion).

So here is why I think that is a problem. We are in a thread here about how you can reach out to non-catholics. You can either trust that your religion is true and express the truth of it or you can use group psychology techniques to draw people in. The group psychology is easy and churches are well practiced at it. Give people a ready-made community, make sure they turn up every week and their absences are noted. Support them and teach them whatever it is you think they should believe. Tell them little by little to trust the book over their own reason and to trust the church community over the wider community. You don't need us to tell you how to do that. You can see it working in your own religious community.

So to me it seems like you are asking our opinion about the other route - the route that assumes your religion is true and tries to express the truth of it. Your core goal is to practice convincing us that catholicism is true. You're not ready to do that yet and I understand your reluctance. In the mean-time you are going around calling atheism a religion. That's insulting to an audience you are trying to befriend, and doesn't advance your argument at all. If you are trying to reach out to a group of people you must listen to them carefully. You must ask them questions and then ask clarifying questions and more questions until you understand not only the message they are trying to get across but where they are coming from on a range of issues. You must get them used to expressing themselves clearly so that you can express yourself clearly back to them. If you want to reach out to someone through logical argument you really want to get them practicing the processes of examining their own beliefs and explaining or questioning the flaws in those beliefs.

I really think that "atheism is a religion" is a dog-whistle. It's a way of saying "I'm the right kind of person. I believe the right things. If you believe the same things as me we should be friends". It's a way of talking to other believers in code. It's a way of sneering at those you disagree with while feeling self-righteous. I would say that unless you can find a way to advance your argument with this assertion you should remove it from your outreach toolkit. Spend your time sharpening the arguments you actually want to advance and listening to the arguments of people you want to reach out to rather than insulting them in a way that doesn't advance your argument or defeat theirs.

(20-03-2015 09:58 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  
(20-03-2015 07:35 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  But where I think you'll really trip up is that I'm not aware at all of "there is no Creator outside of this universe" being accepted by mainstream atheism as "absolute truth". Rather, I think you'll find most atheists hold it only provisionally true while they await compelling data and argument that may change their minds.
I know. But doesn't that make the "atheists" agnostics?

I'm not so sure the people at TTA are truly open-minded to that compelling data that you are talking about.

Yes, that's what most people mean these days when they say "atheist": Someone who doesn't believe. Theists are those who believe. A-theists are those who do not have a belief. Gnosticism and agnosticism consider the question of knowledge, but I think that most of us are sick of trying to figure out what it would mean to "know" something. It's too ambiguous. "I believe it is true" is a clear statement. We know what it means. "I don't believe it is true" is clear - more evidence is required. "I know it is true" or "I do not know it is true" are hard to pin down. What do they mean? What could they mean? As humans we act based on the things we believe, not on the things we know.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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