How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
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21-03-2015, 12:37 PM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(21-03-2015 12:26 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(21-03-2015 10:37 AM)GirlyMan Wrote:  areligious

And what would someone have to be about, being areligious", that would be different from atheism ?

Silly Bucky.

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21-03-2015, 10:01 PM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(21-03-2015 06:41 AM)morondog Wrote:  Laramie, I'll clarify.

The question I want you to answer is related to your *statement* that atheism is a religion.

Ah. I see now.

I have to argue that "atheism is a religion" instead of "atheists are religious."

I'm aware that atheists scoff at the former accusation. But I did say it earlier in this thread, after all. Fair enough. That's fine.

But I can't talk at this moment. No time to talk right now. Again, it's gonna have to be after Sunday morning.

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21-03-2015, 10:15 PM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(21-03-2015 10:01 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  I have to argue that "atheism is a religion" instead of "atheists are religious."

You can argue either or (preferably) both. Even if you say atheists are religious, I'd *love* to know how you come to that conclusion. Religion and evidence-based reasoning seem diametrically opposed to me, although certainly plenty of religious people throughout history have managed to do perfectly good science.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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21-03-2015, 10:19 PM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(21-03-2015 01:36 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Atheism is more than this. Saying that you don't believe in God sets the path of your psychology, moral direction, and ultimately your eternal direction. That choice colors everything about you.
No it's not. My lack of belief in the christian god effects me no more then your lack of belief in Odin does. It does not effect my moral direction in the least because Atheism is not a moral theory and I still have access to all other competing moral theories. As far as psychology if it is effected it effects me positively however and that's due to a lack of the traumatic and irrational nonsense that religion heaps on it's followers. My psychology is good because my mind is based around conforming my views and beliefs to reality, not to made up stories, and is thus more demonstrably accurate. And as for eternally...well you nor anyone else has provided a mechanic to explain how identity can be preserved after the breakdown of the biological brain.
The fact that you have not and likely will not means I can dismiss it as irrational nonsense with no basis in reality.
Basically it's a waste of my time to worry about my "eternal direction" until someone demonstrates that an "eternal direction" exists and is not just a bunch of made up bullshit.

Atheism is a single stance on a single subject. Your uninformed insistence otherwise changes that not in the least.Drinking Beverage

(21-03-2015 01:36 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Your answer betrays your complete, utter, and ultimate lack of understanding of your own Atheism.
I know what atheism and agnosticism mean and how they relate. You have shown that you don't even know that. If you think I'm going to even entertain the criticism of a person telling me what MY understanding is of MY position from a person who can't even grasp the basics of my position then your delusional and you and your magic crackers both can go fuck off. You are welcome to pretend to be an expert on a subject you can't even grasp but I'm just going to dismiss your criticism as the unfounded and uninformed dross that it is.

(21-03-2015 01:36 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  You say that no, you do not have faith that there is no God. But the truth is that yes, you do have faith that there is no God.
*sigh* I explained in detail that my position is not a faith position. I showed you how it's not both in content and by definition. Lacking faith in something does not mean you express faith in it's opposite. Off is not a TV channel, Bald is not a hair colour, and a lack of faith is not a faith.
Your counter argument was "nuh-uh! Yes you do!" and that was about it. No evidence, no argument, no rational just some Grade 5 playground bullshit.

(21-03-2015 01:36 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  What strawman did you think I was going to use?
The exact one you just did, attacking the lack of faith as if it is a faith.

(21-03-2015 01:36 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Also, I am aware that atheists are familiar with theists who argue this--that atheists have their own faith.
Not only are we familiar with it we are sick and goddamn fucking tired of it because every last one of you does the exact same thing: you assert it as fact and then you always fail to demonstrate it. ALWAYS. Faith, the word, has a definition and by the fucking definition of the word faith a lack of faith is not faith. Forming conclusions and beliefs based on demonstrable and testable evidence is not a faith based matter. You're wrong. You're super wrong and bordering on delusional.

(21-03-2015 01:36 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  We just haven't gone down that road yet; you do not know to what extent I am familiar with the subject.
Oh piss off, I've talked to hundreds of Catholics and to Christians of many denominations many times more then that and you all have the exact same arguments and the exact same illusory justifications. Your familiarity with the subject is not the issue it's the fact you are demonstrably wrong and can't except it because like most Catholics you have exactly one script and you don't know how to let it go and argue outside it.
Atheism has to be a religion, and the lack of faith has to be a faith because if it's not than you have to accept that it is intellectually consistent, that it is based on evidence and reason and you just can't deal with that. If they are both faith then you can treat them like positions that are equally justified and they are not. One is based on reason and good evidence and the other is based on dogma, superstition, and indoctrination.

(21-03-2015 01:36 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Speaking of moving goalposts. Now we must define faith?
......... asking you to define the words you use ain't an example of moving goalposts. Do you even know what moving the goalposts means? Because it's not "please elaborate on what you mean with that word you are using". Shocking

I need you to define Faith because you must have your own version of it becasue by the standard definition of the word lack of faith is not faith. So I want to know how special made up version of the word you are using.

(21-03-2015 01:36 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Here, at TTA, I have not attempted to present demonstrable reasons for holding belief.
And until you do we are perfectly reasonable and even intellectually sound to reject your claims as a bunch of unsubstantiated, unfounded, and delusional assertions. The same way you do with other religions.

(21-03-2015 01:36 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  You are lumping me in with the collective of Christians, rather than me as an individual.
This is a complaint I might take seriously if you were not lumping every single person here under a collective of atheists and also trying to tell us what our fucking atheism should mean to us and what our view of it has to be and how it works while also being fundamentally wrong on almost every count even down to the basics.

Secondly that not even the damn issue my issue is with you as an individual making a bunch of assertions that you don't demonstrate. That has nothing to do with "lumping you up in a collective" and everything to do with you as an individual.

(21-03-2015 01:36 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  I don't know why you would think I've tried to do this--I've even stated in this thread I have not tried to do that. Not that I won't in the future. I might, if I'm inclined.
Well until you do start justifying and demonstrating the bald faced assertions that you repeatedly make over and over I have no reason at all to consider them to be just that: bald faced assertions without evidence or justification to support them and I'll dismiss them as such.
So basically what you are saying is you want the freedom to say whatever the hell you want as if it's a fucking fact without having to demonstrate that it is a fact. That's not how it works. That's not how you establish what is and is not true, it's not how you have a productive conversation, it's intellectually dishonest to claim as a fact that which is not a fact. I'm not, and I doubt anyone else is, interested in having anyone regurgitate their Catholic indoctrination onto us without any reason to show it as anything less then intellectual vacant word vomit.

(20-03-2015 11:34 PM)WhiskeyDebates Wrote:  The fact that you and those like you can not provide a single bit of evidence for your position does not mean that those who require evidence to support your position suddenly stop acting on evidence and start acting on faith.

(21-03-2015 01:36 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Once again, you lump me in with the collective.
Once again the fact that you regurgitate the exact same uninformed talking points as other Christians is not the issue, the issue is you as an individual coming in here and feeling like you can present whatever made up nonsense you want as if it's a FACT and then arguing you have no obligation to back it up.

(21-03-2015 01:36 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  It's just as easy for me to lump you in with the collective of atheists
The only time you have not been doing that was when you took time out from it to be a bigger asshole and tried to dictate to me what my understanding of my own viewpoint was.

(21-03-2015 01:36 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  You have no idea if I am capable of providing evidence for my position.
You have been asked repeatedly and by multiple persons over several days now to provide evidence and you have refused to do so on every single subject or point that has been raised. Lots of us, myself included, have provided justifications for our positions. Even if I did not know the subject well enough to know that your "evidence" won't amount to anything even close to empirical, falsifiable, or independently testable or rely on bullshit made up definitions you have failed on every occasion to provide any evidence....that you can provide evidence.

(21-03-2015 01:36 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  You do not even know if I am interested in doing so.
If you're not interested in doing so than you are not interested in legitimate and informative conversation, and your only interested in preaching your unfounded opinion. If you are only interested in making assertions and not demonstrating them to be true then we are all perfectly well reasoned to dismiss them as delusional made up stories of a person not interested in discussing reality.

It's a waste of everyones' time to entertain every thing you, or someone else, makes up.

(21-03-2015 01:36 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  And I have no need, particularly with your attitude, to provide proof to you that God is quite real.
Yes actually you do, at least if you want to be taken seriously or as anything other then a lying motherfucker who is just making shit up. So far you have provided nothing at all to distinguish yourself from a delusional person other then your assertions that you are not one. If your going to claim god exists you have to demonstrate that he does, that's how it works. My "attitude" does not absolve you from having to prove your made up shit.
You can also keep comments on my attitude to your damn self, I entered this thread by telling you exactly how to foster cordial and polite conversation with the type of atheist I am and you proceeded to ignore everything I said and do the exact shit I told you would piss people off. If you can't converse in a cordial and honest way you get attitude bub.

(21-03-2015 01:36 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  The burden of seeking proof is entirely on your shoulders.
First off it's not up to me to go out in search of proof to support, or even disprove, YOUR fucking claims. They are YOUR fucking claims so YOU have to fucking prove them.
Secondly I've been "searching for proof" by asking you to demonstrate your evidence (proof) for your claims. You don't even understand what "burden of proof" even means that's shockingly evident at this point.

(21-03-2015 01:36 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  You don't feel like hearing the theists who come onto TTA, then butt out.
It's like I'm talking to a brick wall. Bitch I am happy to listen to theists who come here and their reasons for believing. Which is exactly what I have been trying to do for a while now: listen to your reasons justifying belief. But you won't give them. If you want to have free reign to come in here, spout of whatever fucking dumb bullshit you want as a stone cold fact I'm also willing to listen to that. So long as you show how it is a fact and not just your goddamn delusional opinion. I'm not interested, and I doubt anyone else is, in letting you saying whatever the fuck you want as fact and establishing none of it. We check facts here. We evaluate evidence. We don't believe shit just cause we are told it by some random asshole which is why we are atheists and not bloody Catholics.

We are interested in reality, and you seem to just wanna sell fairytales as facts.

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21-03-2015, 10:37 PM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(21-03-2015 03:04 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  I have no burden to prove anything whatsoever.
Then you have no business presenting things as fact when you have not shown them to be facts. And you have absolutely no right to protest when we call you on your unproven assertions.
We value evidence, we check facts, we care if what we say is actually true.

(21-03-2015 03:04 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Shall I expect Leo to bear the burden of proof for backing up the supposed "lies" that he claims Catholicism presents as truths? (post #52) No. I expect such horseshit here.
The fact you don't expect him to demonstrate his claims does not change the fact that if it would be up to Leo to demonstrate his claims if a demonstration was asked for. Burden of proof is not expunged "cause you don't feel like doin' it".

(21-03-2015 03:04 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  My expectations for Leo are realistic.
The fact you think it's unreasonable to be required to prove your assertions is revealing.

(21-03-2015 03:04 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Burden of proof again? No. It is you who currently burdens himself with getting me to prove things.
OK you really do not understand what that phrase means.

(21-03-2015 03:04 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  I'm not proving a point in this thread.
Then you have not made a point in this thread. You have just asserted nonsense and asked us to buy it wholesale.

(21-03-2015 03:04 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  As if I'm supposed to be the prototypical evangelist charging into the atheist forum to rescue you from Hell. I'm not.
You are makign the arguemnt that only "prototypical evangelists" need prove the things they assert as true. that's not the case. You do as well, and you do because you are making truth claims.

(21-03-2015 03:04 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Bullshit, once again. I am as inclined to prove pink unicorns as you are inclined to prove that a tree appeared out of nothing in your yard.
You entirely missed his point.

(21-03-2015 03:04 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Well, when you try really really hard not to look for proof of a Creator, chances are that your laziness or deliberate ignorance will pay off.
Oh you can absolutely go fuck yourself now you lying bastard. It has been pointed out to you that the VAST FUCKING MAJORITY of us were Christians that spent years looking for that proof and found nothing to support the conclusiont here is a god. We did not decide to be atheists then try to NOT look for evidence you strawmaning little shit, and you know this because we have told you it multiple times.

(21-03-2015 03:04 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  .... though you will bow to Him one day by force.

Prove it bitch.

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22-03-2015, 12:24 AM (This post was last modified: 22-03-2015 12:44 AM by LaramieHirsch.)
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
bunch of made up bullshit...
... you and your magic crackers both can go fuck off.
... we are sick and goddamn fucking tired of it because every last one of you does the exact same thing...
...bordering on delusional.
... piss off...
... trying to tell us what our fucking atheism should mean to us ...
... rely on bullshit made up definitions...
... a lying motherfucker who is just making shit up...
... keep comments on my attitude to your damn self...
...YOUR fucking claims. They are YOUR fucking claims so YOU have to fucking prove them.
Bitch I am happy to...
...whatever fucking dumb bullshit you want as a stone cold fact
..your goddamn delusional opinion
... letting you saying whatever the fuck you want ...
Oh you can absolutely go fuck yourself now you lying bastard.
...you strawmaning little shit...
...Prove it bitch.



Popcorn You take me back to the good ol' days when I first came on board to TTA.


You throw filth like the ape you claim to be.



Speaking of unsupported assertions...


Your assertions:

Quote:no person claiming a god exists has provided any evidence of his existence

Prove it.

Quote: We have demonstrable reasons for withholding our belief

List them.

Quote: those like you can not provide a single bit of evidence for your position

Those like me? Who are you referring to? Can you list them?

Quote: We have no need to provide proof your god is not real at all

How convenient for you. Smile

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22-03-2015, 12:48 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(22-03-2015 12:24 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  
Quote:no person claiming a god exists has provided any evidence of his existence

Prove it.

That's clever, I like it. Thumbsup

(22-03-2015 12:24 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  
Quote: We have demonstrable reasons for withholding our belief

List them.

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ce-Library

http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...rce-thread

But now I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth.

~ Umberto Eco
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22-03-2015, 01:58 AM (This post was last modified: 22-03-2015 02:02 AM by Kaepora Gaebora.)
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...




Laramie, I strongly advise you to watch the above to learn about burden of proof before going forward.

Also, I don't appreciate passive aggressiveness towards me, as I'm doing my best to come across as kind while being open to discourse. My last statement was saying that you can believe anything you want. Though, forcing your beliefs on others based something that you cannot prove is unethical.
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22-03-2015, 02:13 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(22-03-2015 01:58 AM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  Also, I don't appreciate passive aggressiveness towards me, as I'm doing my best to come across as kind while being open to discourse. My last statement was saying that you can believe anything you want. Though, forcing your beliefs on others based something that you cannot prove is unethical.

Are you referring to my response to post #138?

Okay. We'll start over next time.

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22-03-2015, 03:48 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(22-03-2015 01:58 AM)Kaepora Gaebora Wrote:  Laramie, I strongly advise you to watch the above to learn about burden of proof before going forward.


Howdy again, KG.

I watched the video you suggested. Very informative. I am aware that if I am to convince you that God is real, then the burden of proof is on my shoulders. That has always been clear to me. And I see that you folks don't like having the burden of proof put on your shoulders when a theist will ask you to prove that God does not exist.

But no matter how much we play with the concept of the burden of proof, I still claim that I have no burden to prove that God is real. Not in this thread.

Why?

Because neither in this thread--nor in any thread on TTA--have I sought out to convince anyone that God is real.

In this thread, I set out to explain how wonderful I am at reaching out to non-Catholics. In a previous thread, I set out to explain a statement about how there is no "evil" for atheists, only consensus among populations. In the latter, the burden of proof was on my shoulders to prove my statement true. Next week, the burden of proof will be on my shoulders as I tell morondog how atheists are religious and how atheism is a religion.

Everything else has been window dressing.

This is probably why Whiskey gets upset when I deny having to prove anything when he argues: We have no need to provide proof your god is not real at all, the burden of proof is entirely on you.

If I come off as a Catholic who says that God exists and that He has interacted with mankind throughout human history, and that there is an afterlife that will involve reward and punishment...it is because I am a Catholic who believes that God exists and that He has interacted with mankind throughout human history, and that there is an afterlife that will involve reward and punishment.

I've always figured that the most objective thing to do is to accept that your opponent/antagonist is what he is, that he will say what he will say, and simply focus on the particular issues that you agree to discuss.

There's a lot of baiting here that leads down tangents I do not have time for. If Whiskey or anyone cannot carry on a civil conversation with me because I believe in God, then they should butt out. In the meantime, I agree to try to stay on thread topic and give you the best answer I can as someone who is not an authority on the matter. I don't have time for diversions from the subject. If the conversation sways a little off course, I usually pursue that tangent because it will add foundation to our ongoing conversation of the primary subject.

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