How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
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20-03-2015, 02:40 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 02:03 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  "Be precise..." Again, arguing on TTA against an army of atheists requires encyclopedic knowledge, weeks of back and forth, and an understanding that all information will not be blurted out instantaneously. There are many out there who argue this, and I'm willing to bet you have a thread about this accusation already.

You have confidently stated that atheism is a religion. Now when challenged you decline to even *justify* your statement? It's hard to take you seriously. Come on, bro. Be a pal. Gimme *one* reason why you consider atheism to be a religion.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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20-03-2015, 02:50 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 02:03 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  As far as wild statements are concerned, I hear them all the time from you folks. There's too many to counter in a reasonable fashion. One has to pick their battles. Besides, the internet's a hobby, not an obsession.

Ah, so since we make wild statements therefore you too may chuck reasoned argument out the window Smile Truly, you religious guys with your logic can teach us many things.

If I make a wild statement that is a weakness in my argument. Same goes for you. If I say your argument is weak, whether or not mine is weak has no bearing on the weakness of your argument. Just saying "you're as bad as me" doesn't magically make your argument more believable.

Besides which I'd like for you to give me an example of atheists making 'wild statements' about Catholics. Bear in mind that many of us *are* former Christians. We have the experience to make statements concerning our religious experience. Your tropes of 'atheism is a religion' and 'atheists are materialists' and 'atheists have nothing to live for' which you've repeated ad nauseam, tend to make me believe that you have no understanding of atheism.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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20-03-2015, 02:51 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 02:40 AM)morondog Wrote:  ...
Gimme *one* reason why you consider atheism to be a religion.

We wear funny hats?

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20-03-2015, 02:55 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 02:51 AM)DLJ Wrote:  We wear funny hats?

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What exactly do you consider funny about my hat? Angry

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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20-03-2015, 03:00 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 02:23 AM)Stevil Wrote:  
(20-03-2015 02:03 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Should I be right, and this life is a mere test, then your denial of the Creator could land you in a bad afterlife. I don't have a problem "with you." I have a problem with what you believe.
But you have to admit (don't you) that from our skeptical POV there isn't any evidence that let's us know that your god exists.

I don't know. I've never explored a debate or prolonged argument that went down this path. I've never tried to provide "evidence" that God exists. It seems as though atheists have already made up their mind, in any event.

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20-03-2015, 03:30 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 03:00 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  I don't know. I've never explored a debate or prolonged argument that went down this path. I've never tried to provide "evidence" that God exists. It seems as though atheists have already made up their mind, in any event.
How do you justify hell for people who choose the wrong god or no god at all?

Let's say that in the end (after we all die) you are proven right. Your god exists and those that didn't believe in it go to hell and get tortured.

Do you turn a blind eye and worship your god or do you appeal to your god that the people who didn't believe in it had no evidence to lead them to the belief. That it was just random chance that some believed in the "right" god and others didn't. Therefore the requirement of belief is unjustified.

Would you try endlessly to get your god to stop torturing the unbelievers?
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20-03-2015, 04:29 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 03:00 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  I've never tried to provide "evidence" that God exists.

Have you ever looked for any evidence that he exists yourself?

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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20-03-2015, 04:44 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 02:40 AM)morondog Wrote:  You have confidently stated that atheism is a religion. Now when challenged you decline to even *justify* your statement? It's hard to take you seriously. Come on, bro. Be a pal. Gimme *one* reason why you consider atheism to be a religion.

Yes. I have declined to justify my statement when challenged. Why? It's not because I'm afraid to explore the conversation. It's a matter of having time. Exploring how atheism is a religion with its own developing denominations is an entire thread in and of itself.

Weeks ago, I asked for a link to TTA's best thread resource on evolution. I have yet to look at the resources provided in that thread. Shortly after that, I decided to participate in soul's thread, titled "evil." In that, I have been trying to explore the concept of evil in a godless universe. People continue to bring up points. I continue to address those points. There's 30 pages. I've so far been able to reply to people up to page 24, and I may have left some folks out. Further, participants to that thread continue to pour in. Should I just blow the thread off?

And then, there is this thread. I was a little nervous about starting a second thread, because it'd mean my attention would be taken off of the first thread. And lo and behold, new tangents arise in this thread that are off topic and would require a lot of attention. And when I try to tell folks here at TTA that I can't get to it, y'all tell me I'm not giving deep explanations, evidence, or what have you. This thread was actually started because I was telling DLJ about how I've attempted to evangelize others. But, as you can see, tangents have arisen, and I've got to choose where to take the conversation and if I should forget about what other people have asked or accused. Usually, if I have a short answer, I'm able to answer it quickly. But something like "prove atheism is a religion," or "demonstrate evidence for God," surely you know that can be a long thread.

(20-03-2015 02:50 AM)morondog Wrote:  Truly, you religious guys with your logic can teach us many things.

I've always thought so. But speaking for myself, I've never been good at keeping people's attention.


(20-03-2015 02:50 AM)morondog Wrote:  If I make a wild statement that is a weakness in my argument. Same goes for you. If I say your argument is weak, whether or not mine is weak has no bearing on the weakness of your argument. Just saying "you're as bad as me" doesn't magically make your argument more believable.

Besides which I'd like for you to give me an example of atheists making 'wild statements' about Catholics. Bear in mind that many of us *are* former Christians. We have the experience to make statements concerning our religious experience. Your tropes of 'atheism is a religion' and 'atheists are materialists' and 'atheists have nothing to live for' which you've repeated ad nauseam, tend to make me believe that you have no understanding of atheism.

Check out each bolded part. Each of those could be separate threads unto themselves. Do you see what I mean? I can only pick one thing at a time. And yet, other folks will tell me something as well. Or, I might see something I might look forward to responding to. So...what can I tell you? Limitations.

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20-03-2015, 05:04 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
Speaking of questions that I have a quick answer for:

(20-03-2015 03:30 AM)Stevil Wrote:  How do you justify hell for people who choose the wrong god or no god at all?

Let's say that in the end (after we all die) you are proven right. Your god exists and those that didn't believe in it go to hell and get tortured.

Do you turn a blind eye and worship your god or do you appeal to your god that the people who didn't believe in it had no evidence to lead them to the belief. That it was just random chance that some believed in the "right" god and others didn't. Therefore the requirement of belief is unjustified.

Would you try endlessly to get your god to stop torturing the unbelievers?

It is not for me to worry about those who have never heard of Jesus Christ. God may have a plan or a saving grace for such people.

However, I personally have heard of Jesus Christ, and so I am obligated to either choose or not choose him, and I'm charged with sharing that knowledge with other people. All Christians are charged with that task so that there will be no one on Earth who cannot make that choice.

But this idea of a person who has not heard of Christianity is called invincible ignorance. The Cathechism states this:

This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation. (CCC 847)


You ask an interesting and fun question. If there are people in Hell who I thought were innocent, would I endlessly ask God to admit them to Heaven?

Well, no. Here is why. First, such people who suffer from invincible ignorance will probably not go to Hell. But secondly, when you die, the wool is taken off of your eyes and you are aware of everything. If I were to make an analogy of this life we all live, I would liken it to a sheet of paper. Right now, in this brief material world, we are only able to see the edge of the paper. When we cross the threshold of death, we will see the entire sheet of paper, and we will have a comprehension of vast things that were formerly mysteries to us. Everyone who has died does not have the same personality that they had when they were once alive. They are changed in their thinking. Evil people become like demons and the horrible zombies that we see in the movies. Those who attain salvation will know a peace that I cannot describe to you, and they will enjoy the beatific vision, and they know what should happen for the greater glory of God. Everyone will know why things happened the way they happened in this life. The knowledge will be innate.

The people in Heaven will not be concerned with the people in Hell. I could have sworn that I even read a passage somewhere that those in Heaven rejoice as the smoke of burning sinners rises to Heaven, but I think I've either lost where that's at in the Bible, or I misread something. Will people be sad in Heaven? I suppose we will not be sad about the damned for the same reason God is not, and this will probably be attributed to the innate knowledge we will all inherit.

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20-03-2015, 05:06 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 04:44 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Yes. I have declined to justify my statement when challenged. Why? It's not because I'm afraid to explore the conversation. It's a matter of having time. Exploring how atheism is a religion with its own developing denominations is an entire thread in and of itself.

Hmm. The local horticultural society qualifies as religion then too. They have meetings with speakers, collect money for the master gardener program and are a close knit community, too.

[Image: dobie.png]Science is the process we've designed to be responsible for generating our best guess as to what the fuck is going on. Girly Man
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