How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
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20-03-2015, 05:10 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 05:06 AM)Dom Wrote:  ....

Hmm. The local horticultural society qualifies as religion then too. They have meetings with speakers, collect money for the master gardener program and are a close knit community, too.

Yabut! Do they wear funny hats?

Shy

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20-03-2015, 05:11 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 05:10 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(20-03-2015 05:06 AM)Dom Wrote:  ....

Hmm. The local horticultural society qualifies as religion then too. They have meetings with speakers, collect money for the master gardener program and are a close knit community, too.

Yabut! Do they wear funny hats?

Shy

Only when they take tours - wide brimmed straw hats. Smile

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20-03-2015, 05:39 AM (This post was last modified: 20-03-2015 05:43 AM by morondog.)
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 04:44 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  
(20-03-2015 02:40 AM)morondog Wrote:  You have confidently stated that atheism is a religion. Now when challenged you decline to even *justify* your statement? It's hard to take you seriously. Come on, bro. Be a pal. Gimme *one* reason why you consider atheism to be a religion.

Yes. I have declined to justify my statement when challenged. Why? It's not because I'm afraid to explore the conversation. It's a matter of having time. Exploring how atheism is a religion with its own developing denominations is an entire thread in and of itself.
"Atheism is a religion".
"How so".
"I don't want to change topic".

You brought it up. You want to use it to bolster your point but since neither I nor anyone else following this accepts your statement, and since you refuse to back up the statement in any way whatsoever, your point remains un-bolstered.

Quote:Weeks ago, I asked for a link to TTA's best thread resource on evolution. I have yet to look at the resources provided in that thread. Shortly after that, I decided to participate in soul's thread, titled "evil." In that, I have been trying to explore the concept of evil in a godless universe. People continue to bring up points. I continue to address those points. There's 30 pages. I've so far been able to reply to people up to page 24, and I may have left some folks out. Further, participants to that thread continue to pour in. Should I just blow the thread off?
You've got plenty of time to type a long reply detailing why you can't give me a short reply Dodgy

Quote:And then, there is this thread. I was a little nervous about starting a second thread, because it'd mean my attention would be taken off of the first thread. And lo and behold, new tangents arise in this thread that are off topic and would require a lot of attention. And when I try to tell folks here at TTA that I can't get to it, y'all tell me I'm not giving deep explanations, evidence, or what have you. This thread was actually started because I was telling DLJ about how I've attempted to evangelize others. But, as you can see, tangents have arisen, and I've got to choose where to take the conversation and if I should forget about what other people have asked or accused. Usually, if I have a short answer, I'm able to answer it quickly. But something like "prove atheism is a religion," or "demonstrate evidence for God," surely you know that can be a long thread.

(20-03-2015 02:50 AM)morondog Wrote:  Truly, you religious guys with your logic can teach us many things.

I've always thought so. But speaking for myself, I've never been good at keeping people's attention.


(20-03-2015 02:50 AM)morondog Wrote:  If I make a wild statement that is a weakness in my argument. Same goes for you. If I say your argument is weak, whether or not mine is weak has no bearing on the weakness of your argument. Just saying "you're as bad as me" doesn't magically make your argument more believable.

Besides which I'd like for you to give me an example of atheists making 'wild statements' about Catholics. Bear in mind that many of us *are* former Christians. We have the experience to make statements concerning our religious experience. Your tropes of 'atheism is a religion' and 'atheists are materialists' and 'atheists have nothing to live for' which you've repeated ad nauseam, tend to make me believe that you have no understanding of atheism.

Check out each bolded part. Each of those could be separate threads unto themselves. Do you see what I mean? I can only pick one thing at a time. And yet, other folks will tell me something as well. Or, I might see something I might look forward to responding to. So...what can I tell you? Limitations.

So... this thread exists for you to make silly statements and refuse to discuss them further for lack of time? Thumbsup Got it. Won't waste your time further, after all there are many *important* questions about Catholicism which I'm sure you're itching to answermake vague statements about and insist that you can't discuss further right now.

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(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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20-03-2015, 05:47 AM (This post was last modified: 20-03-2015 05:54 AM by Chas.)
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 01:13 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  
(18-03-2015 07:41 PM)Chas Wrote:  Atheism is not a religion. You are talking out your ass. As usual.

Goodness! How do you function in society talking like that?

Quite well, thank you. You see, unlike you, I live in the real world.

Quote:- - -

(18-03-2015 05:56 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  Any group of people that has subgroups is a religion?

No. But atheism is a religion that has subgroups.

Please support your claim that atheism is a religion, despite having been repeatedly informed that atheism is simply the lack of belief in any gods.

Quote:
(18-03-2015 05:56 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  What's your best example?


I suppose the boldest lie is that atheists speak with assuredness that there is no Creator outside of this universe. In reality, atheists cannot prove this. They do not really know.

No, we speak with assuredness of the lack of evidence for any gods. You really don't seem to listen very well.

Quote:It is difficult to point to something beyond the universe when all you use to measure and detect things is the material. Trying to prove or disprove something beyond the material with simple limited material things will get you nowhere.

The ultimate problem, I suppose, is that atheists are materialists.

Even if true (you haven't supported that assertion), how is that a problem?

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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20-03-2015, 05:54 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 01:48 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Here, at TTA, I'm not really interested in presenting "testable, falsifiable, and demonstrable evidence" that's gonna bring them in. ... Likewise, I will speak the way I speak and say Catholic things like it's just absolutely true without question because I'm Catholic, and that's how Catholics talk.

So your position is that you just want to preach and have no intention of ever providing any actual arguments for your position. That's so precious.

Quote:Hopefully this kind of frankness will help in civil discourse, but we'll just have to see.

We've explained repeatedly that we are interested in evidence-based reasoning. You aren't. That makes any discourse pretty pointless, don't you think?

Quote:I stand behind my accusation that atheism is a religion, though I think that's a subject for a different thread.

Accusation? I didn't expect the Spanish Inquisition. Also, "I know you are but what am I?" is not a compelling argument.

Quote:I understand that stating these things only further ostracize me here. But what can you do? I'm a token Catholic on an atheist forum.

Hey, I think you got something right for once!

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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20-03-2015, 06:02 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 05:54 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
Quote:I understand that stating these things only further ostracize me here. But what can you do? I'm a token Catholic on an atheist forum.

Hey, I think you got something right for once!

He got even that part wrong Dodgy The implication of token is that he's here as some kind of nod to PCness, whereas actually we'd be perfectly happy not to have him.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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20-03-2015, 06:20 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 06:02 AM)morondog Wrote:  He got even that part wrong Dodgy The implication of token is that he's here as some kind of nod to PCness, whereas actually we'd be perfectly happy not to have him.

You got me there; I was trying to find something nice to say. Not sure why.

Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
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20-03-2015, 07:35 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 01:13 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  
(18-03-2015 05:56 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  Any group of people that has subgroups is a religion?
No. But atheism is a religion that has subgroups.
So the thing I'm struggling with here is that you want to define atheism as a religion to show it is incorrect, right?
(1) So are all religions incorrect? Are religions bad and is that why you want to fit atheism into the religious box so you can call it bad? If so, what is inherently wrong with religion?
(2) ... or is it that religions other than your own are false because you know yours is true?

It would seem that if (1) is true and all religions are bad then your own religion is bad... so it must be (2) you are going for, right? Your claim would then follow the logical structure of:
1. Catholicism is true
2. Catholicism is mutually exclusive with all other religions
3. Atheism is a religion
Therefore, Atheism is false.

But then it would seem that it doesn't really matter whether Atheism is a religion or not. It's a shell game and a diversion. The main point you need to establish is premise (1): Catholicism is true.
That's a mighty burden of proof to place upon yourself. It might be better to start with something smaller don't you think?

(20-03-2015 01:13 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  
(18-03-2015 05:56 PM)Hafnof Wrote:  
(18-03-2015 01:38 PM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Atheism, like most religions, presents lies as absolute truths.
What's your best example?
I suppose the boldest lie is that atheists speak with assuredness that there is no Creator outside of this universe. In reality, atheists cannot prove this. They do not really know.

It is difficult to point to something beyond the universe when all you use to measure and detect things is the material. Trying to prove or disprove something beyond the material with simple limited material things will get you nowhere.

The ultimate problem, I suppose, is that atheists are materialists.

Ok, to show that atheism presents lies as absolute truths you must show the following:
1. That a given statement is a lie
2. That an atheist presented the lie as an absolute truth
3. That the lie being an absolute truth is a mainstream belief within the atheist population

I think the proposition you want to want to work with from your post above is "there is no Creator outside of this universe". You want to show that it is a lie, and you want to show a consensus opinion among atheists with specific quotes from specific prominent atheists that this proposition is an absolute truth. I'm not completely sure what you mean by "lie" above. I would have thought it would mean "demonstrably false". So you want to show:
1. That "there is no Creator outside of this universe" is demonstrably false
2. That an atheist has presented "there is no Creator outside of this universe" as an absolute truth
3. That "there is no Creator outside of this universe" being an absolute truth is a mainstream belief within the atheist population.

As it is I think you may be defining "lie" as "not demonstrably true" rather than "demonstrably false". Above you say that atheists can't disprove a creator, but does this really make "there is no Creator outside of this universe" a lie, or does it make it unfalsifiable? Would you call all unfalsifiable beliefs lies?

But where I think you'll really trip up is that I'm not aware at all of "there is no Creator outside of this universe" being accepted by mainstream atheism as "absolute truth". Rather, I think you'll find most atheists hold it only provisionally true while they await compelling data and argument that may change their minds.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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20-03-2015, 07:41 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
^^^

I think we all got some schooling in logic there.

Golly!

Smile

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20-03-2015, 09:43 AM
RE: How do I (a Catholic) reach out to non-Catholics...
(20-03-2015 01:48 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Here, at TTA, I'm not really interested in presenting "testable, falsifiable, and demonstrable evidence" that's gonna bring them in. I've said before in another thread, I'm not trying to convert anyone here. I'm just a conversationalist ....
That's fine naturally but you need to remember even in just a conversational setting you're not going to be able to have much of a conversation with people who value reason, evidence, and critical skepticism if you say wild and unrealistic, even magical, and often times demonstrably false things and then provide no support for them at all. At that point we might as well be speaking two different languages. One of rationality and the other of nonsensical fiction.

(20-03-2015 01:48 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  That being said, I also understand that folks here are going to say their atheist things as though it's just absolutely true without question because they're atheist, and that's how atheists talk.
Atheism makes no claims to absolute truth. See this is exactly what I was talking about when I listed things you should not do. You really do need to learn what Atheism does, is, and says. Also if there is one group of people that does not do things "without question", it's Atheists, most of us here were former Christians who became Atheists because we could not believe and follow without question.
Atheists do not think, act, or talk the way or even for the reasons you think they do.

(20-03-2015 01:48 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Likewise, I will speak the way I speak and say Catholic things like it's just absolutely true without question because I'm Catholic, and that's how Catholics talk.
I'm sorry but I'm even gonna disagree with you here. I know a lot of Catholics, I grew up in Dublin and was forced to go to church for several years, and a great many of them question and question a lot. Protestantism exists for the very reason some people could not continue without question.

There is a huge difference between the two though: The Catholic Church has throughout it's history actively engaged in trying to stifle dissenting thought and questions. The church demands people follow it without question because it is THE church, it enforces these demands with threats of hell, and it has historically been quick to try and put down anyone it dislikes with fire or steel.
This is not the case with Atheism. It's not even possible with Atheism, we have no authorities, no dogma, no leverage, no clergy. Atheists don't speak or think "without questioning" because we have not had nearly 2 millennia of authorities commanding us to do so.

It seems to me like your entire line of argument is to make Atheism resemble religion as much as you possibly can. You're going to get absolutely nowhere with that as it resembles it not at all. The lack of something does not make it the thing you lack. This is very basic.


(20-03-2015 01:48 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Hopefully this kind of frankness will help in civil discourse, but we'll just have to see.
Frankness is less a concern for civil discourse with me then honesty and accuracy of claims is.

(20-03-2015 01:48 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  I trust that when I quote Bible verses as fact or statements from the Catechism or the saints as fact, the people at TTA will have the understanding to expect me to say that, seeing as I'm Catholic.
I'll speak for myself only here: I absolutely expect you to do that. However the fact that I except it, that you believe it, or that you are Catholic in no way skirts the burden of proof you have on your claim. That you believe it to be a fact does not make it a fact, facts are demonstrable and MUCH of what you have said so far is not. A fact is not a fact because you really really believe it. You are not entitled to your own facts, facts MUST comport with reality and facts do that when they can be demonstrated.

(20-03-2015 01:48 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  Why lie?
Well now see here is the thing about that you may already be lying: you have made a claim to the content and works of Atheism that people here have both objected to and demonstrated why it's wrong. It's been established and explained to you why it's wrong, how it's wrong, and a correct definition and explanation has been given to you.
You have ignored all that and continue to argue from a personal belief that is just factually and demonstrably wrong and you refuse to even clarify your position when asked.
Which means you are either have a single narrative you know how to argue from and are being dishonest in it's maintenance, are not reading the replies, or you the faculties to understand the replies.

(20-03-2015 01:48 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  I think it'd be nice if everyone here started believing in the Almighty, repented of sin, and we all went to Heaven together.
I'll use this as an example of what I mean: None of those things are to be considered as real and factual by any rational and evidence based mind until a demonstration of their existence can be made. As it stands now you are making a claim to the existence of something, providing no support, rationalization, or evidence for them and thus making your claim entirely indistinguishable from every other claim made by every other believer in every other religion.
Your claims are indistinguishable from delusion, fiction, or a lie. That is why many of us reject the man made concept of gods.

(20-03-2015 01:48 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  I stand behind my accusation that atheism is a religion, though I think that's a subject for a different thread.
It's not a subject for another thread you are making the claim in THIS thread so we will discuss it in THIS thread. Atheism is not a religion, it contains nothing that by definition makes up a religion. You have had this explained to you now more then a dozen times.
As I said earlier I think you have a single narrative you know how to argue and it REQUIRES the false view that Atheism is a religion which is why you won't stop that line of talk even though it's been proven wrong. However if you think it's a religion then provide your definition of a religion, we will see how accurate that definition is. Honestly this is a waste of time, Atheism is a single answer to a single question and that is ALL the content it has. Hardly enough to build a religion around but you go ahead and give your definition.

(20-03-2015 01:48 AM)LaramieHirsch Wrote:  I understand that stating these things only further ostracize me here. But what can you do? I'm a token Catholic on an atheist forum.
Haha no, you are not playing that card son. One of our most loved, respected, and honestly just plain coolest guys on this forum is a Calvinist so let me be super clear: If you get ostracized it's not because you are a catholic among Atheists. It will be because you continue to state as fact that which is not a fact. It will because you continue to argue from a false representation, a strawman, of what Atheism is dishonestly and after numerous corrections. It will be because you continue to think things are facts because you want/need them to be facts. It will be because you continue to make claims, not support them in anyway, and then argue as if they are authoritative or tell us anything.

In short if you get ostracized it will be due entirely to your demonstrated proclivity towards conversing dishonestly.

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