How do I convince a Christian that genocide is always immoral?
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22-06-2017, 02:39 PM
How do I convince a Christian that genocide is always immoral?
I'm really stuck on this debate and I know the opposing argument is faulty but I'm just tired of doing all this work in my responses only to have everything ignored because of his circular reasoning. Does anyone have any advice as to what I could say in response that might get him to understand that a murderous God is not perfect or trustworthy? Thanks in advance.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAChristia...4/diverq8/
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22-06-2017, 02:42 PM
RE: How do I convince a Christian that genocide is always immoral?
(22-06-2017 02:39 PM)av0vad0 Wrote:  I'm really stuck on this debate and I know the opposing argument is faulty but I'm just tired of doing all this work in my responses only to have everything ignored because of his circular reasoning. Does anyone have any advice as to what I could say in response that might get him to understand that a murderous God is not perfect or trustworthy? Thanks in advance.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAChristia...4/diverq8/

Someone thinking that genocide isn't immoral by definition is a lost cause. No need to waste time on such people.

The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology, of the phantom of God. As long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth.

Mikhail Bakunin.
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22-06-2017, 03:07 PM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2017 03:15 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: How do I convince a Christian that genocide is always immoral?
Why bother. Life if short.
Tell him A#1 : "show me there is a god"

“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?”

Speculating about (a non-existent, undemonstrated god's intentions), is more than a total waste of time.

There are seriously SUFFERING innocent babies and children, starving and dying by the thousands every day.
Ask him seriously if he thinks his idiot god is SO uncreative and limited, that he *needs* to use the suffering of babies to work his purposes ?
And I bet he will say this same "loving god" sent his son to save us. LMAO.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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22-06-2017, 03:08 PM
RE: How do I convince a Christian that genocide is always immoral?
Ask the fuckhead how he'd feel about exterminating jesus freaks? That seems like a great idea to me.

Atheism is NOT a Religion. It's A Personal Relationship With Reality!
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22-06-2017, 04:25 PM
RE: How do I convince a Christian that genocide is always immoral?
Send him to a good Christian web forum, where they can straighten him out. No Christian I know of thinks that genocide is moral or likely to be done by their God under the new covenant as represented by the New Testament.

This post is offered without reading the debate you are having with him.

"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
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22-06-2017, 04:53 PM
RE: How do I convince a Christian that genocide is always immoral?
If he thinks there are circumstances in which it's justified then he's fucked in the head. Don't worry about convincing him. His own loudly-expressed opinions will fuck him over in the eyes of anyone following the argument. You can't hope to convince the person you're arguing against, but you can rub the noses of anyone on his team in the implication of the views they're espousing. With any luck some of them will realise "Hang on a minute, this God guy really doesn't seem very good".

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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22-06-2017, 05:25 PM
RE: How do I convince a Christian that genocide is always immoral?
(22-06-2017 04:25 PM)Jeanne Wrote:  No Christian I know of thinks that genocide is moral or likely to be done by their God under the new covenant as represented by the New Testament.

And what the *same* god did in the Old Testament is just water under the bridge over the Ararat, eh? Drinking Beverage

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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22-06-2017, 05:28 PM
RE: How do I convince a Christian that genocide is always immoral?
(22-06-2017 02:39 PM)av0vad0 Wrote:  I'm really stuck on this debate and I know the opposing argument is faulty but I'm just tired of doing all this work in my responses only to have everything ignored because of his circular reasoning. Does anyone have any advice as to what I could say in response that might get him to understand that a murderous God is not perfect or trustworthy? Thanks in advance.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAChristia...4/diverq8/

Just walk away from it. As we say down here, "Never try to teach a pig English -- it wastes your time and annoys the pig."

Life is too short to worry about someone else's mind. Take care of your own.
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22-06-2017, 05:41 PM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2017 05:48 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: How do I convince a Christian that genocide is always immoral?
Okay, I just read what you have so far.

This guy (I'm assuming it's a dude, for the sake of simplicity, here), AgnosticChristian, is not being unreasonable, as far as I can see. He is quite right in asserting that there may be some greater good, of which you are unaware, that makes allowing evil-- as we perceive it-- necessary to the Greater Plan™. Your assertions about "God just lets them suffer while they cry out for help" (paraphrase) are not valid arguments against a good God, if one is working with the presumption that there may be some great framework in which individual suffering must be permissible to this deity.

In other words, a moral being is not under compulsion to stop bad things from happening, even if able, if there is some higher good that may occur as a result of that inaction... a modern example of this would be allowing a military convoy to be wiped out, as we did in WW2, even though we had broken the German codes and knew that U-boats were about to ambush that convoy, since it would have given away the secret that we had broken the codes, and in the end far more lives would be saved by sacrificing the sailors on those ships. It's small comfort to the men trapped in the sinking, torpedoed wrecks of their Liberty Ships, but just because they did not know why Command chose to let them die does not mean Command was immoral for doing so.

However, if you're focusing on the Abrahamic God, it would be more apropos to the point of the argument to ask why "God" gave out specific, divine commands for genocide, set rules for slavery, etc., actions which are considered universally immoral under the modern understanding of the term, and which cannot possibly have a moral upside.

If God is really okay with telling his personal tribe that they can murder everyone in the neighboring tribe for offending him, except for the virgins which they can keep for themselves, then it's fair to say that this is not an example of a moral being.

Just for example. Hope that helps!

Edit to Add: You really should read that whole chapter. This closing bit about the plunder is particularly interesting:

31:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
31:2 Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites

[...]
31:32 And the booty, being the rest of the prey which the men of war had caught, was six hundred thousand and seventy thousand and five thousand sheep,
31:33 And threescore and twelve thousand beeves,
31:34 And threescore and one thousand asses,
31:35 And thirty and two thousand persons in all, of women that had not known man by lying with him.


Yes, you read that right. They murdered everyone among the Midianites, stole all their shit, and kept 32,000 virgins (who would mostly have been under the age of 14, at that time in history) for themselves, by direct command of Yahweh. Quite the moral creature, this god of theirs. Dodgy

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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22-06-2017, 05:47 PM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2017 07:43 PM by Vera.)
RE: How do I convince a Christian that genocide is always immoral?
(22-06-2017 05:41 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  In other words, a moral being is not under compulsion to stop bad things from happening, even if able, if there is some higher good that may occur as a result of that inaction...

What about a moral being which CREATED the world where this takes place and could have done it in such a way, as not to have to choose between not allowing a genocide and the "greater good". Basically, it just forced its own hand. I guess Hitch was right, eh? Not that great, this god of ours (figure of speech, ain't no god of mine, that moral vacuum)

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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