How do I convince a Christian that genocide is always immoral?
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22-06-2017, 05:56 PM
RE: How do I convince a Christian that genocide is always immoral?
(22-06-2017 05:25 PM)Vera Wrote:  
(22-06-2017 04:25 PM)Jeanne Wrote:  No Christian I know of thinks that genocide is moral or likely to be done by their God under the new covenant as represented by the New Testament.

And what the *same* god did in the Old Testament is just water under the bridge over the Ararat, eh? Drinking Beverage

Yes, Vera. That is what Christians who know their Bible will tell him and maybe he will realize that he should not consider genocide to be moral.

I don't believe it and neither do you, but as a Christian, he should. Or...as a "true Christian" who "knows the truth" he should believe it. If he believes wrongfully, then he needs to be corrected by Christians who believe correctly.

See?

"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
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22-06-2017, 06:03 PM
RE: How do I convince a Christian that genocide is always immoral?
(22-06-2017 05:56 PM)Jeanne Wrote:  Yes, Vera. That is what Christians who know their Bible will tell him and maybe he will realize that he should not consider genocide to be moral.

I don't believe it and neither do you, but as a Christian, he should. Or...as a "true Christian" who "knows the truth" he should believe it. If he believes wrongfully, then he needs to be corrected by Christians who believe correctly.

See?

Yeah, but that is still approving of genocide. At one point. In the past.

So technically, *all* Xtians do approve of it. The fact they are lying to themselves what we should all be grateful for - they are nowhere near as big a moral vacuum as their god would be if it existed.

See?

"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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22-06-2017, 06:13 PM
RE: How do I convince a Christian that genocide is always immoral?
I think God got some therapy or something like that....antidepressants, maybe. Different covenant, different rules for God. Same rules for humans though.

I don't know...just trying to make sense of this dilemma...

Sorry if the "See?" wrote as smart-assed...really just trying to be silly.

"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
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22-06-2017, 06:22 PM
RE: How do I convince a Christian that genocide is always immoral?
(22-06-2017 06:13 PM)Jeanne Wrote:  I think God got some therapy or something like that....antidepressants, maybe. Different covenant, different rules for God. Same rules for humans though.

I don't know...just trying to make sense of this dilemma...

Sorry if the "See?" wrote as smart-assed...really just trying to be silly.


Hey, maybe I was too. Or am unusually cranky for some reason which escapes even me, for truly, am not in a foul mood and yet... Rolleyes

Maybe he got a god-change operation Big Grin Or amnesia. Or, that was his evil god-twin, like in a crappy soap opera. Which the bible kinda reads like...

And, oh god, oh god, oh god, OH GOD: Brazil’s biblical soap opera The Ten Commandments is a TV hit Blink




"E se non passa la tristezza con altri occhi la guarderò."
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22-06-2017, 06:38 PM
RE: How do I convince a Christian that genocide is always immoral?
Having not seen the Reddit argument, I imagine the Christian is relying upon Divine Command Theory (DCT); that is, anything done by God, whatever it is, is somehow good because it comes from God.

Firstly, you're unlikely to change his/her mind no matter what facts and arguments you present because their worldview is already set in stone. Arguing with data and rationality will cause them to further double-down and increase their intransigence. See The Backfire Effect.

That said, there are plenty of refutations available, starting with "First you have to prove a God exists in order to make the assumption that what God does is automatically good. So, let's see your proof."

That's unlikely to win them over, however.

More detailed outlines of DCT and refutations of same can be found here:
Divine Command Theory and More on Divine Command Theory.
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22-06-2017, 06:43 PM
RE: How do I convince a Christian that genocide is always immoral?
Dear Heath, too much thought...

Still...glad you are taking this problem seriously.

OMG, Vera! A tv hit?! Nearly orgasmic...

"The Ox is slow, but the Earth is patient."
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22-06-2017, 07:28 PM
RE: How do I convince a Christian that genocide is always immoral?
I see you updated your argument with (a much more succinct and sharply-worded version of) my suggested reply. Nicely phrased. Right on point. Smile

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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22-06-2017, 08:44 PM
RE: How do I convince a Christian that genocide is always immoral?
(22-06-2017 07:28 PM)RocketSurgeon76 Wrote:  I see you updated your argument with (a much more succinct and sharply-worded version of) my suggested reply. Nicely phrased. Right on point. Smile

I thought I had replied to your original comment but I don't think it sent (it's been a while since I used a forum like this lol), I didn't mean to use your suggestion without acknowledging/thanking you first, i'm so sorry about that. I really appreciate what you said and I also agree that my original points were weak and didn't really address his argument. I wasn't thinking in the mind of a Christian.

I have a feeling this redditor will still find some apologetic reasoning to get around the example, but by that point I think I'll just let it go. I actually hadn't read that chapter thoroughly before (kinda skipped through Numbers as a Christian cause I always found it depressing) and it made me even more aware of how genuinely twisted the bible really is and how sadistic the Christian God is. Again, I appreciate your help so much!
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22-06-2017, 08:58 PM (This post was last modified: 22-06-2017 09:07 PM by RocketSurgeon76.)
RE: How do I convince a Christian that genocide is always immoral?
No worries; I made the suggestion in the hope that you would find some use of it.

Do keep in mind that that there are many types of Christian. Many recognize that big chunks of the Torah are little more than mankind attempting to (or pretending to) speak on behalf of God, as they saw it, and they are aware of the scholarship that shows the early Israelites were 1) formed from a loose association of tribes that were genetically and culturally indistinguishable, initially, from the Canaanite tribes around them 2) henotheistic, meaning one primary tribal god out of many acknowledged gods, 3) and that they had "hitched their wagon" to a tribal war god, Yahweh*, who was but one of the pantheon of gods under El-Elyon, the God Most High, worshiped by all the other Canaanites... that the combination of the two into a single One God™ would not come until the time of the Babylonian Exile, which is why the Torah's accounts of everything are so jumbled and cut-and-pasted, such as the two accounts of Creation.

For non-fundamentalist Christians (and most modern Jews), your argument about the barbarity of Yahweh as described in the OT would be unsurprising, as they consider the Bible to be the flawed work of men attempting to understand God in their own way, and they freely recognize the many political and cultural influences that steered those scriptures when the priests presumed to "speak for God".

However, against a fundamentalist or any other person who tries to use the Bible as the "inerrant" source for a description of God, it may cause their cognitive dissonance to trigger hard enough to pull them out of that fundy mindset... it happened to several of us here. So when a person tries to say that the Bible is unquestionably The Word of God™ down to the letter, you can show them that either the letters are human-made, or God is a psychopath.

* Edit to Add: If this is at all confusing, you can search for threads here which talk about the formation of Yahweh as a concept, himself being a combination of the Elamite deity Yah (borrowed/assimilated by the southern tribes like Judah, from which most modern Jews descend) and the "Lord of Hosts", a deity that sat among the Council of Gods, under the God Most High, which was the primary deity of the northern Israelite tribes. A "host" is another term for a battle formation, or army... so literally the "Lord of Armies", akin to Ares/Mars in Greek/Roman pantheons, which it seems likely to me rose to prominence as the war between the Hittites (north of Canaan) and the Egyptians (who owned Canaan) over the region left the two empires weakened enough for the Israelite tribes to rise to power-- meaning that the worship of a war-god who could help them in battle would be a pretty strong motivator to the priest and ruling classes of those tribes.

EvolutionKills put it pretty well, here.

EvolutionKills Wrote:Yahweh Saboath, the Lord of Hosts (Lord of the Armies), is one of the 70 sons of El Elyion/El Shadai. He is a regional deity with jurisdiction over the lands of Judea. At one time he was on equal footing with Baal and Ashera, but later revisionists (namely the Yahwists) made him out to be the most powerful deity of their pantheon. Later revisions had him take credit for the work of El, and made Ashera his wife instead of El's, and eventually the Priestly source edited the books into the monotheistic perspective we see today. It's kind of a cluster fuck.

"Theology made no provision for evolution. The biblical authors had missed the most important revelation of all! Could it be that they were not really privy to the thoughts of God?" - E. O. Wilson
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22-06-2017, 11:27 PM
RE: How do I convince a Christian that genocide is always immoral?
This is my argument that bypasses the "mysterious greater good unknown plan" argument. You can substitute anything that causes pain and suffering for genocide in it, too.

Question: Can "God" achieve whatever aims he has in mind without including genocide in it?

If no: he's not all powerful.

If yes: then he chooses to include genocide, and all the suffering that comes with it, for no greater gain.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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