How do atheists identify something as designed?
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19-11-2013, 02:59 AM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(19-11-2013 02:47 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(19-11-2013 02:30 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I'm sure if you looked you could find right now papers on the subject.

Seeing as how I can't prove a negative, how about you Google them for me? Drinking Beverage

Child universe in the lab

There are others, you can do your own research though.
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19-11-2013, 03:38 AM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(19-11-2013 02:59 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(19-11-2013 02:47 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  Seeing as how I can't prove a negative, how about you Google them for me? Drinking Beverage

Child universe in the lab

There are others, you can do your own research though.


I'm sorry, did you already forget your original point?


(18-11-2013 10:07 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The idea of the universe creating itself is farfetched in my opinion. There are problems with quantum fluctuations too.


So one paper from 2006 is enough to move your desired intelligent creator idea from far-fetched to plausible, but the mainstream consensus that the universe has a natural origin seems far-fetched to you? Conformation bias much? Consider

Lets also go over your papers again. What they suggest is that it might be possible for an intelligence (us) to create a micro-universe. What is the only process we know that can create such an intelligence? Evolution by means of natural selection. Would that be at all evidence for your deistic leanings? Nope. It would be far better evidence for a race of advanced aliens, themselves also not super-natural, then if would for any of your cherished god concepts.

Also, I can cite papers too.

The Origin of the Universe as Revealed Through the Polarization of the Cosmic Microwave Background

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19-11-2013, 03:48 AM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(19-11-2013 03:38 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(19-11-2013 02:59 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Child universe in the lab

There are others, you can do your own research though.


I'm sorry, did you already forget your original point?


(18-11-2013 10:07 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The idea of the universe creating itself is farfetched in my opinion. There are problems with quantum fluctuations too.


So one paper from 2006 is enough to move your desired intelligent creator idea from far-fetched to plausible, but the mainstream consensus that the universe has a natural origin seems far-fetched to you? Conformation bias much? Consider

Lets also go over your papers again. What they suggest is that it might be possible for an intelligence (us) to create a micro-universe. What is the only process we know that can create such an intelligence? Evolution by means of natural selection. Would that be at all evidence for your deistic leanings? Nope. It would be far better evidence for a race of advanced aliens, themselves also not super-natural, then if would for any of your cherished god concepts.

Also, I can cite papers too.

The Origin of the Universe as Revealed Through the Polarization of the Cosmic Microwave Background

I'm glad you mastered google. That means I won't need to google anything for you in the future.


You get star next to your name for today.
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19-11-2013, 03:54 AM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(19-11-2013 03:48 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I'm glad you mastered google. That means I won't need to google anything for you in the future.

And you still suck at dodging the point... Drinking Beverage

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19-11-2013, 04:02 AM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(19-11-2013 03:54 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(19-11-2013 03:48 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I'm glad you mastered google. That means I won't need to google anything for you in the future.

And you still suck at dodging the point... Drinking Beverage

And you swallow Drinking Beverage
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19-11-2013, 04:52 AM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(19-11-2013 04:02 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(19-11-2013 03:54 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  And you still suck at dodging the point... Drinking Beverage

And you swallow Drinking Beverage

It's the only gentlemanly thing to do. Angel

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19-11-2013, 05:22 AM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(18-11-2013 11:23 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The idea that an intellect could create a universe, which has the implication that an intellect could have created our universe, is not "ridiculous" or an "argument from ignorance fallacy" as others have suggested. It is a real scientific question. One way to start answering that question is to ask if the universe looks designed. What does a designed universe look like?

Seems more like a form of strawman. Just because somebody grew an ear on the back of a mouse doesn't mean my ears came from mice. Tongue

Also there is the matter of intellect/design/utility. Thinking the universe is designed for intellect is like rebuilding the New England Aquarium for a goldfish. And how does one "design for emergent complexity," whatever that means?

Besides, creation is on the far end of parsimony. Other paradigms than BBT have been suggested and investigated.

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19-11-2013, 05:31 AM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(18-11-2013 12:18 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 06:31 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Why was it designed to be emergently complex? Is emergent complexity the end goal, to create a kaleidoscope for the god to look at... or did it have a purpose?

If you create a universe are you going to create one that say simply collapses into a giant black hole? Or are you going to create one where stuff happens?

So it sounds like you are closer to the "Kaleidoscope" end of things than the "create individuals to get to know" end of things. Is that where you are heading... or are you trying to get to the goal for the universe being creation of its inhabitants?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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19-11-2013, 09:21 AM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(18-11-2013 01:52 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 12:29 PM)sporehux Wrote:  A universe creates itself, Its our rare pleasure to investigate the principles of it.
and ponder the impossibility of its origin.

or you could just buy into a slave/death cults we already know everything so you don't have to know anything, deity. Baaaaaa

We don't know how the universe we can observe came into existence. The idea that it is a product of intellect is just as reasonable as the idea that it "created itself". Now the reason I started this thread is what we do know is the proposed starting conditions of the universe are not a natural state of affairs...very low entropy. How would you identify whether or not this state of affairs is designed or not? Its not something we are familiar with like say a machine.

You are assuming that the universe came into existence. It exists, I agree with that.
But it is not at all clear that there was a process of creation preceding its existence.
Rather than saying that the universe created itself, I would say that the universe exists, but has not been created.
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19-11-2013, 09:32 AM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(18-11-2013 10:07 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 02:45 PM)Stevil Wrote:  Both are ridiculous.
An entity cannot be the cause of itself. However it must be noted that the Universe isn't an entity. It also must be noted that when people speak of the universe it is often unclear exactly what they mean. Whether they are talking about the big bang expansion, or existence in its entirety (space, time, matter/energy)
An intelligence cannot create existence. Intelligence is a consequence of existence. Without time, and observable events or systems, there is no data, without data there is no information, without information there is no knowledge, without knowledge there is no intelligence. Also, intelligence alone cannot do anything, intelligence requires a mechanism in order to affect its environment thus intelligence is irrelevant with regards to the question "How did the universe come to be?". What we ought to be looking for is the mechanism, how can energy be created? How can time and space be created?
It seems that quantum fluctuations are our best guess thus far.

Well the idea of intellect creating a universe is not farfetched.

Recreating the universe in the lab

The idea of the universe creating itself is farfetched in my opinion. There are problems with quantum fluctuations too.

The people here use the word "universe" loosely. By definition, the universe
is all existing matter and space consisting as a whole. Any "baby-universe"
that you would create, would by definition be part of our universe,
and by definition would not be an actual universe.
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