How do atheists identify something as designed?
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18-11-2013, 06:28 AM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
Can you point to something in particular that was designed that is on Earth?
Does designed to you equal perfection?

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
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18-11-2013, 06:31 AM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
Why was it designed to be emergently complex? Is emergent complexity the end goal, to create a kaleidoscope for the god to look at... or did it have a purpose?

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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18-11-2013, 06:52 AM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(18-11-2013 05:07 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  A puddle can exist in any shaped crevice but emergent complexity can only exist in specific universes.

Really ? You have examples of universes without emergent complexity ?
We await you examples.

(18-11-2013 04:10 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  My beliefs are very deistic....but I wouldn't say I am a deist.

How exactly does one distinguish one who is a deist, from one who isn't, if NOT by their beliefs ? Be specific.

(18-11-2013 04:10 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  I think the universe is designed to be emergent complex.

Why is it your English grammar is so poor ?
Are you as uneducated as your writing makes you appear ?
Why should anyone listen to, or give any credibility to someone who can't write a sentence in English correctly ? You've been spouting this "theory" since your first post here about Dawkins, yet you're never provided one shred of evidence for it. Are you ever planning on doing that, Blowjob ?

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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18-11-2013, 12:18 PM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(18-11-2013 06:31 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Why was it designed to be emergently complex? Is emergent complexity the end goal, to create a kaleidoscope for the god to look at... or did it have a purpose?

If you create a universe are you going to create one that say simply collapses into a giant black hole? Or are you going to create one where stuff happens?
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18-11-2013, 12:29 PM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(18-11-2013 12:18 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 06:31 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  Why was it designed to be emergently complex? Is emergent complexity the end goal, to create a kaleidoscope for the god to look at... or did it have a purpose?

If you create a universe are you going to create one that say simply collapses into a giant black hole? Or are you going to create one where stuff happens?

A universe creates itself, Its our rare pleasure to investigate the principles of it.
and ponder the impossibility of its origin.

or you could just buy into a slave/death cults we already know everything so you don't have to know anything, deity. Baaaaaa

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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18-11-2013, 01:27 PM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(18-11-2013 03:19 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 03:00 AM)Hafnof Wrote:  What do you think he designed the universe for?

I think the universe is designed to be emergent complex.

Oh, look, word salad.

"HeyWouldYaBlowMe". Interesting.

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18-11-2013, 01:52 PM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(18-11-2013 12:29 PM)sporehux Wrote:  A universe creates itself, Its our rare pleasure to investigate the principles of it.
and ponder the impossibility of its origin.

or you could just buy into a slave/death cults we already know everything so you don't have to know anything, deity. Baaaaaa

We don't know how the universe we can observe came into existence. The idea that it is a product of intellect is just as reasonable as the idea that it "created itself". Now the reason I started this thread is what we do know is the proposed starting conditions of the universe are not a natural state of affairs...very low entropy. How would you identify whether or not this state of affairs is designed or not? Its not something we are familiar with like say a machine.
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18-11-2013, 02:09 PM (This post was last modified: 18-11-2013 10:55 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(18-11-2013 01:52 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  The idea that it is a product of intellect is just as reasonable as the idea that it "created itself".

Actually it's not, and that's not the only other option.

(18-11-2013 01:52 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  the proposed starting conditions of the universe are not a natural state of affairs...very low entropy.

If it was the the starting condition, then it was "natural" for that moment. The fact it's not "natural" now is irrelevant, and totally illogical. Things change radically.

(18-11-2013 01:52 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  How would you identify whether or not this state of affairs is designed or not? Its not something we are familiar with like say a machine.

You wait until more is known, instead of inventing artificial "god of the gaps" fantasies.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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18-11-2013, 02:09 PM (This post was last modified: 18-11-2013 02:22 PM by sporehux.)
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(18-11-2013 01:52 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 12:29 PM)sporehux Wrote:  A universe creates itself, Its our rare pleasure to investigate the principles of it.
and ponder the impossibility of its origin.

or you could just buy into a slave/death cults we already know everything so you don't have to know anything, deity. Baaaaaa

We don't know how the universe we can observe came into existence. The idea that it is a product of intellect is just as reasonable as the idea that it "created itself". Now the reason I started this thread is what we do know is the proposed starting conditions of the universe are not a natural state of affairs...very low entropy. How would you identify whether or not this state of affairs is designed or not? Its not something we are familiar with like say a machine.

So you know better than NASA and thousands of scientist who are experts in this field ?
"The Hubble constant is named after the astronomer Edwin P. Hubble, who astonished the world in the 1920s by confirming our universe has been expanding since it exploded into being 13.7 billion years ago. In the late 1990s, astronomers discovered the expansion is accelerating, or speeding up, over time. Determining the expansion rate is critical for understanding the age and size of the universe."

The universe expanded out from a singular point, the causality of matter (h) and energy created the universe as it expanded, gravity nuke baked all the known elements, hence it created its self (no dice rolling here, pure cause and effect interaction.

Before the expansion our universe did not exist, it was a singularity of unknown origin.
Entropy has no business here, assigning intellect to the process is equally as nonsensical
http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/spitze...21003.html

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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18-11-2013, 02:45 PM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(18-11-2013 01:52 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  We don't know how the universe we can observe came into existence.
The idea that it is a product of intellect is just as reasonable as the idea that it "created itself".
Both are ridiculous.
An entity cannot be the cause of itself. However it must be noted that the Universe isn't an entity. It also must be noted that when people speak of the universe it is often unclear exactly what they mean. Whether they are talking about the big bang expansion, or existence in its entirety (space, time, matter/energy)
An intelligence cannot create existence. Intelligence is a consequence of existence. Without time, and observable events or systems, there is no data, without data there is no information, without information there is no knowledge, without knowledge there is no intelligence. Also, intelligence alone cannot do anything, intelligence requires a mechanism in order to affect its environment thus intelligence is irrelevant with regards to the question "How did the universe come to be?". What we ought to be looking for is the mechanism, how can energy be created? How can time and space be created?
It seems that quantum fluctuations are our best guess thus far.
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