How do atheists identify something as designed?
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
18-11-2013, 02:50 PM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(18-11-2013 01:52 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Now the reason I started this thread is what we do know is the proposed starting conditions of the universe are not a natural state of affairs...very low entropy. How would you identify whether or not this state of affairs is designed or not? Its not something we are familiar with like say a machine.
In some cases we need to discover the designer and observe the approach it took in designing and creating the object.
For example if we observe an ant's nest, we see that it has tunnels and chambers, an observer might ask, "was this nest designed?"
So how do we go about finding if an ant's nest is designed?
A person could compare multiple ant's nests. If they all differ one would search for the specific design of each nest. Scouring over it with a microscope, looking for some blueprints that match the physical implementation. If none are found, maybe they could conclude that the design is kept in the head of the designer and communicated to each worker. Thus one would expect an information exchange to occur, maybe before any construction occurs, each worker discuss with the designer ant what work needs to be done. If do see some ants talking to a designer then we could experiment, by killing some of them, will this mean the construction will be incomplete? What if we kill the designer? Will the design be scrapped and a new one created or will a new designer look to modify the existing design? If the designer changes then will we see a distinct difference in design style?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-11-2013, 06:05 PM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(17-11-2013 09:14 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  This reminds me of two greek philosophers.
Who holds the earth up?
Atlas
Who Holds Atlas up?
Turtles
Turtles?
Yes He stands on giant turtles.
So below that is another turtle? What does that turtle stand on?
Another turtle
And beneath that?
Turtles. Turtles all the way down!

I know this is late and off topic and nitpicking but it was the Earth that held Atlas up. He was actually holding up the heavens as the pillar that did that during the great war was damaged.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-11-2013, 06:43 PM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(18-11-2013 06:05 PM)DemonicLemon Wrote:  
(17-11-2013 09:14 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  This reminds me of two greek philosophers.
Who holds the earth up?
Atlas
Who Holds Atlas up?
Turtles
Turtles?
Yes He stands on giant turtles.
So below that is another turtle? What does that turtle stand on?
Another turtle
And beneath that?
Turtles. Turtles all the way down!

I know this is late and off topic and nitpicking but it was the Earth that held Atlas up. He was actually holding up the heavens as the pillar that did that during the great war was damaged.
Oh? I got another one. Plato and a Platypus Walk into a Bar...

"I don't have to have faith, I have experience." Joseph Campbell
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes grizzlysnake's post
18-11-2013, 07:04 PM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(18-11-2013 01:52 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 12:29 PM)sporehux Wrote:  A universe creates itself, Its our rare pleasure to investigate the principles of it.
and ponder the impossibility of its origin.

or you could just buy into a slave/death cults we already know everything so you don't have to know anything, deity. Baaaaaa

We don't know how the universe we can observe came into existence. The idea that it is a product of intellect...

...is an Argument from Ignorance Fallacy.



Quote:...is just as reasonable as the idea that it "created itself".

Who is claiming that?

Quote: Now the reason I started this thread is what we do know is the proposed starting conditions of the universe are not a natural state of affairs...


Dodgy Really?

Quote:very low entropy. How would you identify whether or not this state of affairs is designed or not? Its not something we are familiar with like say a machine.
You are Begging the Question.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-11-2013, 08:57 PM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(18-11-2013 07:04 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 01:52 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  ...is just as reasonable as the idea that it "created itself".

Who is claiming that?

I am, Smile ,although its a semantic word salad,
my crude reasoning is , the spewing of matter into the early universe chaotically evolved into the current known universe,
hence the current universe is a result (creation) of the proto universe, pre-universe (bigbang/expansion event) is not the universe in my example.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-11-2013, 10:07 PM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(18-11-2013 02:45 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 01:52 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  We don't know how the universe we can observe came into existence.
The idea that it is a product of intellect is just as reasonable as the idea that it "created itself".
Both are ridiculous.
An entity cannot be the cause of itself. However it must be noted that the Universe isn't an entity. It also must be noted that when people speak of the universe it is often unclear exactly what they mean. Whether they are talking about the big bang expansion, or existence in its entirety (space, time, matter/energy)
An intelligence cannot create existence. Intelligence is a consequence of existence. Without time, and observable events or systems, there is no data, without data there is no information, without information there is no knowledge, without knowledge there is no intelligence. Also, intelligence alone cannot do anything, intelligence requires a mechanism in order to affect its environment thus intelligence is irrelevant with regards to the question "How did the universe come to be?". What we ought to be looking for is the mechanism, how can energy be created? How can time and space be created?
It seems that quantum fluctuations are our best guess thus far.

Well the idea of intellect creating a universe is not farfetched.

Recreating the universe in the lab

The idea of the universe creating itself is farfetched in my opinion. There are problems with quantum fluctuations too.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-11-2013, 10:38 PM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(18-11-2013 10:07 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Well the idea of intellect creating a universe is not farfetched.

Recreating the universe in the lab

The idea of the universe creating itself is farfetched in my opinion. There are problems with quantum fluctuations too.

Let me quote that article back at you, with emphasis added.

Quote:Others, like the late cosmologist Edward Harrison, speculated that a super-advanced civilization created our own universe in a lab. This would explain why our Universe is conducive to life and so on.

But let's steer back to more palpable reality. There are serious questions concerning the viability of making baby universes in the lab, in spite of how cool the idea sounds.

[Image: GrumpyCat_01.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes EvolutionKills's post
18-11-2013, 11:23 PM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(18-11-2013 10:38 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(18-11-2013 10:07 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  Well the idea of intellect creating a universe is not farfetched.

Recreating the universe in the lab

The idea of the universe creating itself is farfetched in my opinion. There are problems with quantum fluctuations too.

Let me quote that article back at you, with emphasis added.

Quote:Others, like the late cosmologist Edward Harrison, speculated that a super-advanced civilization created our own universe in a lab. This would explain why our Universe is conducive to life and so on.

But let's steer back to more palpable reality. There are serious questions concerning the viability of making baby universes in the lab, in spite of how cool the idea sounds.

I'm not using that blog as evidence the universe was in fact the creation of intellect, but rather as evidence that it is not a farfetched idea that the universe was the creation of intellect. Its not just Guth at MIT looking into it either. There is a group of scientist in Japan who are also studying whether it could be done in the near future or if ever.

The idea that an intellect could create a universe, which has the implication that an intellect could have created our universe, is not "ridiculous" or an "argument from ignorance fallacy" as others have suggested. It is a real scientific question. One way to start answering that question is to ask if the universe looks designed. What does a designed universe look like?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-11-2013, 11:46 PM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
(18-11-2013 11:23 PM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  What does a designed universe look like?

Well, if one where to posit an all-powerful caring god, then not this universe... Drinking Beverage

[Image: GrumpyCat_01.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
18-11-2013, 11:51 PM
RE: How do atheists identify something as designed?
Quote:The idea is to shrink a chunk of matter to incredibly high densities, forcing it to become a black hole.
Even if they could acheive that, they could never observe what goes on inside the black hole. If a universe where inside, they would never know.

Quote:Others, like the late cosmologist , speculated that a super-advanced civilization created our own universe in a lab. This would explain why our Universe is conducive to life and so on.
This is silly talk.
Obviously an explaination would be needed as to why the universe containing the super-advanced civilization was conducive to life.

But this does not show, one incling how an intelligence (made of nothing) can exist without observations, data, information or knowledge. Nor how an intelligence can exist without a physical instantiation e.g. a brain. It doesn't show how an intelligence can make a universe (does it just think really hard, make a wish type of magic creation?
As is often the case theology tries to promote an abstract concept as if it where a physical existing system.
Gods and souls are like numbers and shapes. They are abstract ideas. That is why it is impossible to state how big a god is or a soul or the number 1 or the circle shape. That's why it is impossible to state what a god, or a soul or a number or a shape is made of.
They are eternal as they don't have a creation or an end, they are outside of time and space, but they don't exist. They are merely abstract conceptual ideas, they cause nothing, they are unobservable, they are eternal because only abstract ideas can be.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: